Anyone who’s been paying attention to cycling lately knows that riders worldwide are joining Zwift in droves. This mass indoor migration includes pro riders in the upper echelons of the sport on WorldTour teams like Mitchelton-Scott, Bahrain McLaren, Trek-Segafredo, Ineos, Jumbo-Visma, Cofidis, EF Pro Cycling, Israel Start-Up Nation, NTT, and Team INEOS. As a huge cycling fan, it puts a smile on my face whenever I spot one of my favorite pros spinning around Watopia!
While you pros have historically stayed away from Zwift races, we’re seeing you jumping into these competitive events in increasing numbers. This is fun to see! But here’s the weird part: you’re not winning! (Well, not very often at least.)
I’ve been thinking about writing this “letter to the pros” for a while, then a recent race made me decide to pull the trigger. Mathieu Van der Poel and his Alpecin-Fenix team raced the Richmond UCI route against some top community teams in a one-off race titled “Ronde van Zwift”. And even though Alpecin-Fenix brought 18 team riders to the event (the community teams each brought 7), they still neglected to place a single rider in the top 10, with only a couple of riders holding onto the main pack through to the finish!
Watch Lionel Sanders’ view of the race:
This isn’t an edge case, either. Pro teams have historically performed poorly in Zwift races against top community teams. What’s happening here, pros? Why are the world’s top road racers being beaten by amateurs?
Here are the reasons, as I see them. With a few tips along the way.
Insufficient Course Knowledge
You wouldn’t go into an outdoor race without a course recce, and this is also true on Zwift! But when I’ve spoken with pros before races, it’s clear they have very little knowledge of the route they’re about to take on. It’s not a difficult job – most race routes are quite short, the route details are readily available online, and you can hop into Zwift at any time to pre-ride your race route.
When you research your route, start by paying attention to just a few key things:
- Length and elevation: this is obvious. You need to know how long the race will last, and what sort of profile it has.
- Climbs: whenever the road turns up, wattage will jump as well. This is where attacks and selections happen.
- Banner locations: you will need to know the location of any sprint and KOM banners, especially in points races. But even in simple scratch races, the banners are where you get powerups, so knowing their location is an important part of knowing when to use or hold a powerup.
- Finish: ride the final kilometers several times, because chances are your race will end in a pack finish. You need to know how best to strategically ride the final minutes of your race.
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Wimpy Setups
I laugh every time I see a pro rider trying to race on Zwift while squinting at an underpowered laptop screen set on a table off to one side. (I only laugh to keep from crying… it’s a sad situation indeed). The vast majority of top Zwift racers do so with a large monitor or TV so they can clearly see what’s going on.
Worse yet, recently I’ve seen many pros riding outdoors with no fans. My guess is they will only make this mistake once, because pros know that overheating results in reduced power. Unless the winds are high outside, you will need a fan! Outside air doesn’t move enough to dissipate the superheated pocket surrounding your body. And of course, if you’re indoors a fan is even more essential.
Working Too Hard
Mastering the draft on Zwift is not difficult, but it does take a little practice since it doesn’t “feel” anything like drafting IRL. Drafting out on the road is intuitive because when you’re not drafting you feel the wind and the increased effort. Plus, you can steer yourself back to an ideal drafting position whenever you’d like, unless there are teams working some wicked echelons in the crosswinds.
On Zwift, being in the draft saves you 30% or more. But you don’t feel the draft – that is, resistance doesn’t drop when you enter the draft, or increase when you leave it. So you have to pay attention to your location in the pack on screen. Again and again I’ve seen pro riders killing themselves on the front of the pack, only to get shelled off the back on the first climb. (This may be a team tactic, but I doubt it.)
Smart racers on Zwift know to shelter themselves in the pack and conserve energy so they have it when it matters. Yes, at times you may have some domestiques whose only job is to keep the pace high by pinning it at the front of the pack – but pros new to Zwift should probably work on just hanging with the front pack first!
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Not Your Typical Road Race
Zwift races are nothing like the 5+ hour road races enjoyed by pros during a typical season. In terms of effort level, Zwift races are most comparable to cyclocross or short TT races. Here are a few key things that characterize most Zwift races:
- The start will be fast. There are no neutral starts on Zwift! Instead, the peloton will push hard from the gun in order to establish a selection. Be pedaling hard when the clock hits zero.
- You should never stop pedaling, except perhaps on a steep descent. Doing so will get you spit out the back, never to return.
- Expect to be riding near threshold for the entire event… except when you have to go harder!
- If you’re dropped, you won’t return. There are no team cars to help pull you back to the pack, and your teammates dropping back probably won’t help, either. When you get dropped from the front of a Zwift race, chances are you’re not coming back.
Serious Business… for Some
As a top pro accustomed to racing and training outdoors, you may think Zwift racing is a bit silly. And that’s understandable. But here’s what you need to know: the community teams you’re competing against take it very seriously. Not only are they stacked with super-strong athletes, but they’ve also been racing on Zwift 2, 3, 4 times a week… for years!
They know the routes like the back of their hand, and they’ve got big screens, strong fans, and high framerates. If you think you can just pop open your laptop, log into Zwift, and beat these teams – you’re probably in for a rude awakening.
In a typical year, at this point in the season, a pro could be excused for not giving Zwift races any serious thought. But this isn’t a typical year. Zwift racing is (arguably) the only serious indoor platform in town, and cycling is only indoors for the foreseeable future. In an industry where camera time leads to sponsor money and fan engagement is paramount, pro teams would be well-advised to avoid “doing a Cofidis“.
We all want to see you pros competing in Zwift races, but it’s going to take some practice and homework if you want to perform well.
And we hope you do, because it’ll be fun to watch.
See you on course!
Ypu forgot one thing, which is actually a defence for pros. They do not have level 25+ gear at all, no fastest bikes, wheels etc.
While you do have a point… the Zwift Aero frame and Zipp 808 wheel’s are very easy to obtain early on. So unless they’ve ridden just 2 hours on Zwift before, they’re gonna have access to gear that’s not that far behind on the competition, at least not far enough to neglect the obvious edge these pro’s should have…
As a long time Zwifter watching De Ronde 2020 race last sunday was funny & sad at the same there… They clock hit 0 and these guys were just sitting there “oh 0, we’re supposed to start peddling”. If you start a Zwift race like that you’re done for about 3 seconds in…
Point takes, but I think this is a very minor factor.
The fastest equipment (Tron, Disc Wheels) is prohibited in the big Zwift races, and I know many pro teams are given fairly high-end bikes to meet sponsor requirements.
I think zwift races in general suit more a MTB style rider. Mega power in short bursts and this differs massively to the requisite of a gran tour pro rider. Everything mentioned is too true and it is great to cycle with these guys day in day out on zwift. Nice article.
Yes actually this hybird bike
I think the main problem is to recover in draft. Ppl dont know how and there os no tutorial.
The draft in a group in Zwift also bears little resemblance to real life. The pro’s are used to attacking and then recovering while sitting in a pack, but the group draft in Zwift is so weak that little recovery is possible.
Fantastic article one of the most sensible I’ve well done 👍
Regards
Paul
This highlights the differences between Zwift & IRL racing. Zwift racing is hard, and can give you a great workout. However Zwift racing is not a level playing field (differences in power sensor O/P’s & ‘errors’ inputting rider metrics to name but 2 biggies). Whilst Zwifting can be fun (it’s a game after all!) and bring a large amount of good feeling about one’s ‘performance if you win or are placed, it’s nothing like winning a race IRL. Don’t believe me? Give IRL racing a try when it’s back up & rolling 🙂
I thik it also highlights that a lot of zwift performances are not legit, even at the higher levels, some of the numbers being produced are insane. Some of this I think is down to smart trainers which generally read higher than standard power meters imo
Sure, but the pros are racing the high-level Zwift races, where ZADA is verifying performances and most riders are dual-recording power and doing verified weigh-ins. We can’t just say “they beat a pro so they must be cheating.” Because few, if any, are… at that level, at least.
That’s just the proof that this dual-recording power is easy to break. Were are all these “super strong” riders, during live events? Where we very rarely see any average power reaching 5w/kg (last UK national was won at… 4.2w/kg). Plus the fact that their power is absolutly not consistent over time. The only reliable verifications I see are :
So if they’re not cheating, how come they’re not able to put out the same numbers when it comes to the live zwift races?
You can check out the numbers for yourself here for the USA National Championship 2019
https://zwiftpower.com/events.php?zid=142256
The winner did 4.1 w/kg over a race of 1h14. The highest w/kg in the top ten was 4.5 w/kg.
Compare this to your run-of-the-mill zwift race, where you wouldn’t even win in the B category with those numbers!!!
Hey, maybe you could write an article on why all these “zwift pros” can’t put out their usual numbers when it comes to live zwift races instead of lecturing actual pro riders on why they can’t win zwift races.
But the race you reference wasn’t a live race, Philip.
When races get longer, w/kg drops. Many of the big live streamed races we’re seeing now are only 20-30 minutes long, so the numbers are higher. When was the last time Zwift live streamed a big race with pros that was almost 75 minutes long? I can’t remember when that happened, ever.
Also: it’s a little disingenuous to say “the highest w/kg in the top ten was 4.5 w/k” when it was a pack finish of 24 riders, several of whom were over 4.5.
Live races certainly do make for interesting data–there is one prominent community racer I know of who has unbelievable numbers, until it comes to live races. But the vast majority of racers I’ve looked at in live races are bang-on in terms of power accuracy.
Lastly: I’m curious, since you seem to think my lecturing of pros is misplaced. Do you think the points I made in my post are incorrect? Unhelpful?
“Many of the big live streamed races we’re seeing now are only 20-30 minutes long, so the numbers are higher”
Length?
https://www.zwiftpower.com/events.php?zid=175827
https://www.zwiftpower.com/events.php?zid=175420
https://youtu.be/Q0xUX-esEJE?t=2019
Since this one was much longer, certainly more than 100 just here
https://www.zwiftpower.com/events.php?zid=502435
would be stronger than during the world championship, excepted than Vujasin and perhaps Pluijmers. So, like I said : where were they?
“But the vast majority of racers I’ve looked at in live races are bang-on in terms of power accuracy.”
There are 2 questions here :
a. Concerns what we denounce : people who didn’t prove anything (and therefore didn’t go live to verify their claims, and they’re the main part of the problem).
b. People who went live: they’re statistically (in terme of %) much more legit than the overal As in zwift (many of non-verified being actually low C in reality : easily verifiable by tracking their history and having in mind the level claimed by each rider
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functional_Threshold_Power : if you know whichh power he pushes this day, at which relative intensity, you know what’s his level, roughly. And nobody can be low C one day, and A+ or pro level 3 days later).
Note that, even if the verified guys are statistically much more legit, some still miraculously increase their level as soon as they’re back home.
I watched the race with the video of Lionel Sanders. Incredible low max HR and average hr during the race too. I understand nothing about it, this just really surprise me.
Check out some of Sanders triathlon performances, he is an incredible athlete!
Watch his comments after the end of the race. He was within a couple bpm of his all-time max heart rate (from several years ago). Heart rate and max heart rate varies a great deal from one individual to another.
He’s an absolute machine. Not a strong sprinter, but he can hold crazy wattage (5.5-6wkg?) for a long time, at around 160bpm.
It’s like this, zwift is like pro races, only with more cheating.
Have a good look through the numbers of the last BC race and you know what I mean.
Riders suddenly able to put 50w above their previous thresholds.
Like weighing your self after a poo
Wishing you were a little bit smaller, not a baller
Like Choosing an ‘accurate’ PM is really a case of eeny meeny
#MarginalGains
Great open letter Eric! You pretty much nailed everything on the head. Pro Alex Dowsett did have a legitimate excuse that he’s Zwifting at altitude. Zwift doesn’t take that into account, and I would imagine a lot of pro’s live high and race low. It is amazing that a former 1-Hour Record Holder and 10 Mile TT Record Holder, who was in the midst of Olympic preparation, so he’s still very very fit, got dropped during a Zwift race! And his Pro skill set and physiological conditioning of a world class Time Trialist should translate well to Zwift.
But I think the #1 factor why pro cyclists are doing so poorly, and yet a Triathlete Lionel Sanders thrives, is simply due to conditioning. Pro’s aren’t conditioned to to start a race at full gas/ above threshold efforts for 5+ minutes. Then hold threshold effort for an hour with :30 second to a minute injections of anaerobic above-threshold surges. And then build power into the final kilometers, and on top of all that Sprint at max capacity! They just don’t train to race like that. Ever. Pro’s all have a single role and their roles rarely include something all encompassing skillsets like a Zwift race where a single rider is trying to make the front breakaway group, covering every surge, being your own lead out and sprinting! This is why Peter Sagan is such a special rider cause he’s on of the few riders who can cover all roles in one race. (Love to see Sagan in a Zwift race). Lionel Sanders won the recent Zwift race because he ‘Raced like he Trains’. Many of Lionel’s training sessions include long blocks at threshold and above-threshold work. Lionel also having raced last year in Canadian Zwift Nationals has the experience on Zwift and knows how to “play the game”. He also knows he doesn’t possess the skillset of Sprinting, so he knew he had to win with an absolutely in-human TT effort.
The #2 most important factor is absolutely knowing, “how to play Zwift the game”, as you covered with drafting, power-ups, knowing to surge on every uphill grade, and surveying the course ahead of time is key. Also part of playing the game is knowing and tolerating the fact that a percentage of the field are “FLYERS”, or knuckle head riders with improperly calibrated power meters. Despite Mr. Min promising to fix this issue he won’t. He can’t. You can only penalize your customer so much. If you give a paying customer more than a ‘tap on the wrist’ it’s bad for business. The real problem with FLIERS is they screw up the race dynamic and push speeds at the front of the front pack that cause legit riders to be dropped. And that drives me nuts. For example, in Alex Dowsetts Tour of Watopia Stage 5 Group Ride a woman beat him in the standings and placed third. If this result were remotely close to real, she’d be the fastest woman cyclist in the world and the first to join a Pro Men’s team. Which would be really cool IRL and I’d love to see… but clearly she’s a FLIER. In several other ZwiftPower standings she’s been DQ’d for UPG. Why are riders who are known FLIERS intentionally/ or unintentionally using mis-calibrated power sources allowed to enter races? Drives me nuts that I’m a C Rider on Zwift, and when I race against some A Group Zwifters IRL triathlon TT’s I beat them handily by a large margin. I guess some people love living in a fantasy world?
In conclusion, I think Pro Cyclsts should stick to Zwift Races series where only vetted riders are racing, with ‘day of’ video weigh ins, dual recorded power readings, and IRL power files are provided. In the end Zwift and specifically “Zwift Racing” is failing because the corporation had several years to fix the problem of FLIERS and they haven’t done an adequate job. And now due to a tragic pandemic, the worlds Pro Cyclists are pouring onto Zwift and looking for a true-to-life virtual race experience; and Zwift is failing to produce it. Behind the scenes the Pro’s are laughing at Zwift and the fact that so many “amateurs” are producing more impressive power profiles then they are. Yes the majority of Zwift riders and Zwift Pro teams are 100% legitimate; but again the single percent of FLIERS/ blatant cheaters are ruining it for all and the Pro’s aren’t taking Zwift serious because of this ridiculous flaw that’s been allowed since inception of the platform. And ZwiftPower is not the answer, because FLIERS like the 3rd place podium in Alex Dowsett’s race was allowed to stand.
There are a lot of cheaters, but why care about them. Bottom line if I was a pro, I’d be doing what I could to improve any weaknesses I had, including working on the trainer in these apps! Worse thing it could do is make your training stronger. I actually saw one person’s Strava profile where he shows off his new e-Bike, guy is like 55+ and his ZP account shows blatant differences in his performance yet he was still able to gain a trophy icon. But, that said there are plenty of true to Zwift training people out there and you can always self analyze the results to make you feel better about not getting an icon trophy! The shorter races on Zwift have many more cheaters as it is hard to vet a race that doesn’t give a 20 minute watt/kg. The longer races definitely are vetted a little better but there will always be cheating when they can’t be checked physically. I actually prefer the group rides and social rides, but also make use of the workouts which are based on your Zwift FTP. I’m pretty sure you find if you ask Lionel that he uses Zwift to train more than he races with it, and I think that should be strong evidence for any professional athlete to see it’s worth especially if your a pro and got badly dropped by Lionel! Just seems easy to me?
I’d probably say the zwift races I’ve been watching the pros do are even shorter than cross races, and are probably more like a track scratch race or a short crit in terms of time and constant effort. Plus I’m not sure if they go as hard in a cross race because I’ve not seen people go full gas down technical sandy banks/pump tracks and the like
Also noticed that Alex Dowsett said that “racing” one of the Tour of Watopia group rides was harder than doing the hour record. So I wonder if the TT/prologue style effort is probably easier too as they’re generally a more “normalized” effort in terms of power instead of the surges you get in the bunch etc.
I’m sure experience zwift racers are just drooling at the start, ready to drill it and hope to drop a legit pro. Just kinda the nature of racing and zwift starts I guess, hopefully the pros will have a relaxed attitude about it and continue to show up. It really is nothing like their day job, right?
Zwift races are just not long enough to take advantage of the very well adapted bodies. And then there is no hierarchy, no physical contact, no real draft, etc…
I think Zwift racing was going well until cameron jeffers was accused of cheating , all the events prior to that were amazing for zwift, the setup for the Zwift British Nationals was a dream one, dont belive me? check this ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUhSIACUKLI ) this was the way to succeed as a serious way to race bikes in a virtual world , then came Covid19 , hence that setup is not viable anymore but look at lionel sanders set up , is like the most normal setup in the world and he was able to win , the way I see it a decent TTer in the pro community could do just fine racing on zwift , they just have to learn to play the game , Zwift is the future of bike racing the way I see it the pros should have a Zwift doping control prior to racing (i.e weight , PM calibration, internet connections, etc) as a way to assure that all have the correct power readings , internet speed among other things. As for the amateurs and regular Joe’s out there let’s try to be honest with our weight and keep our PM calibrated , simple as that.
P.D: signal dropouts happen, even with the best set up (ask cameron jeffers hehehe)
If resistance doesn’t drop on the draft, how is it a draft? It’s been one of my peeves, catching group, having zwift drop my watts, and having to ramp up to get through the draft. Why is that happening, when i am on a smart trainer?
When you’re drafting on Zwift, you can hold the same speed as you would solo, but with lower power. That’s what the Zwift draft effect is. It just doesn’t change the resistance.
I DO wish the resistance would decrease–I think that would make the experience more immersive. It’s why I wrote this: https://zwiftinsider.com/feeling-the-draft/
I think they should change the resistance. They could also randomly change the resistance to a random or pre-programmed wind simulation. Enter the crosswinds!
We Zwift racers also have upgraded and riding the fastest bikes/wheels in the virtual world vs the new pros. At least for now! good stuff
Excellent article Eric. Watching the Alpecin race in which L. Sanders published on YouTube, it was possible to see that he researched the characteristics of the course, sought tips from teammates used to running on Zwift and had a very clear strategy on how to participate in the event, which was followed to the letter and was successful at the end
Hi Eric, loved the article and I hope the Pro’s read it and learn from it. I do have a serious question and would love your thoughts. I pinged Eric Min about having Zwift races on ESPN or NBC Sports Gold for the exact type or races you are talking about here. Eric said that things were in the works but to date have yet to materialize (to my knowledge). What has happened is that a major race went to a Zwift competitor for the Tour de Flanders or De Ronde 2020. Anomalies will happen but what are your thoughts on why Zwift hasn’t moved quicker to fill a live sports void on traditional media (cable/ESPN…) or have we just not gotten there yet? Thanks as always for the awesome content. It helps keep me sane!
I don’t think we’re there yet… Zwift’s broadcast visuals and overall quality need to be improved if they’re going to keep pace with what we’re seeing on ESPN or NBC Sports Gold.
And the time gaps… there needs to be real time gaps instead of this “distance but converted to 30km/h” nonsense.
This shows how unrealistic zwift riding is….
I didn’t know there were crosswinds in Zwift, how did I miss this?
You didn’t. There aren’t crosswinds.
Another great article, Eric. Thanks for publishing a ton of interesting content. You make it look easy, though I’m sure it take a ton of work.
The fact that the IRL pros are not winning on Zwift further emphasizes the need for Zwift-controlled, results-based categorization rather than self-selected W/kg categorization like is soon to be deployed as Zwift’s short-term sandbagging solution. For example, there are probably at least some IRL Cat 1 pro racers that for a while should be racing in B races on Zwift, not because their W/kg match the B’s but because they don’t have enough Zwift racing experience to effectively use their high W/kg. On the contrary, experienced B racers in Zwift with lower W/kg are fully utilizing their W/kg and their Zwift skills and are thus highly effective. Eric is a good example of an efficient Zwift racer. He recently did a write-up about how his W/kg are consistently lower than those with similar race results. This would be helpful for more than just the pros too. I am someone who in the near future will probably be bumped into the A’s on Zwift based on W/kg, but I don’t have any business racing with the expert Zwift racers in the A’s. I’ve only done five Zwift races, which were all in the B category, and my best finish is 10th on ZP. In my opinion, it seems fair to let me to keep racing with the B’s until I’ve had a few podiums (or some other predefined result). Then Zwift could automatically bump me into the A’s (regardless of my W/kg), effectively telling me “ok you’ve had your fun, time to move on and get shelled by the A’s.”
I know I haven’t necessarily added anything new to the narrative. However, I hope Eric’s article is another data point to nudge Zwift toward a results-based system for their long-term sandbagging solution. It seems like the most equitable system, though no system will be perfect.
The whole watts per kilogram issue misses the point, and is not a good predictor of race placement in Zwift. Raw wattage is. So when you see one rider near the top of the placement with much lower watts per kilogram than a rider near the bottom, it’s only because he’s a much heavier rider who can easily crank out big wattage. Zwiftpower doesn’t directly display gross wattage, but you can calculate it yourself from the rider’s other listed data. If they showed raw wattage, the race would pretty much be ordered by that metric, highest to lowest, because Zwift’s speed discount for extra weight and height is a fraction of what it is IRL.
I think you are on to something. I recently dropped my weight because I lost a kilo from all the Zwifting I’ve been doing (yay me!). But I am finding it much harder to hang with a pack on the flats now. It was noticeable with just that small change.
There is a button to toggle between W/kg and W at the top of any list of results on Zwiftpower, no need to find the calculator.
Just a game. Not for real…
I’m new to zwift but not new at all in online games. Aren’t we being way too naive since it’s so easy to just say you are 10-20kg lighter than you actually are? I’ve seen a lot for effort in online games to cheat. I could picture a guy getting some pro cyclist activity on Strava, looking up for the power data and heart rate and making calculations up for his false inputted weight and height not looking so suspicious, making the heart rate somehow match the w/kg of a pro. Not even considering how easy it would be to just outright emulate the data. I know zwift has some kind of protection but it’s probably really hard to not fence out a legit player vs a cheater. I can’t believe we are addressing stuff like, “he’s playing out of a phone or tablet, so he can’t see” and not addressing cheaters. Plus the assumption that some amateur has better fitness and power in 20 minutes than a seasoned pro. Are you guys going to the same irl races that I am? When there’s a ex-pro invited to an amateur race they completely destroy everyone, I can only imagine what an active pro would do. Aren’t we belittling the real strong and trained guys in favor of some random dudes on the internet?
This is because zwift isn’t real.
Just because some joke is great at “call of duty” doesn’t mean they’re ready for war.
I would *love* to see neutral rollouts added as an option for Zwift racing.
Its awesome seeing pros on the platform, but I wonder if most pro cyclists would do better (and regular Zwift racers worse) in races more resembling one day clsssics or grand tour stages. Like a 100 mile hilly loop of Watopia.
Sure it’d be boring to watch but way more suited to the training pros require. Most Zwift races are more akin to a 10 or 25 mile time trial with a hard sprint start and sprint finish thrown in.
How far away is a proper integration of the Concept 2 rower into Zwift ?
The fact that pros aren’t winning much in Zwift races only underlines how different Zwift racing is to racing in person. The key one of these differences is that there is no “sitting in” in a Zwift race. The draft is there, but it’s everybody pulling all together, and not so much just the guys on the front, the way it is in RL. So it’s an FTP effort where your raw power number is the main thing that matters. There are guys winning Zwift races who weigh 250 pounds because it’s easy for them to put out the 350W average power that gets you the top rankings. Whatever weight and height you punch into your settings has very little effect on your speed compared to the huge difference it makes in RL, all else being equal.
If you don’t know the course. By the time you notice you are on a incline it’s too late. Course knowledge like you say is super important.
So many new people on zwift doing live streams and “my first zwift race” videos. Saw a video claiming they won a race but it was actually a group ride (maybe that’s just as hard though lol).
It’s simple: you can’t beat the salad spinner
Trainer difficulty should be off in races, a hill is there and hurt in the legs if you put in 100%, is not the same you put watts in tt position and fake hill.
How do we seperate real journalism from obvious advertising..
?
Could it be as well that cheating in Zwift is rife?
Hacking your turbo trainer to get you an extra 20% can’t be that hard.
Case in point
https://www.bicycling.com/news/a28912281/zwift-hacking/
and… https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pq9t0VEIMio&feature=youtu.be
And the digital doping?
Im loving Zwift and the racing, even if so many amateurs seem to be able to put out pro level watt per kg, weird right. But it’s fun.
I would LOVE to see those winning the zwift races in a proper bike race.
Sooo true.
The actual reason is that they’re not lying about their weight and the others are. I live in an area that has a lot of WT riders. When one of them goes close to full gas they’re dropping everyone and anything with ease including domestic pros.
I respectfully disagree.
In the top Zwift races, where pro teams are invited, the community riders are under a microscope. They’re dual-recording power, doing video weigh-ins, overseen by ZADA, etc.
Sure, there may be some weight doping in lower level everyday community races. But in the invitationals… nah.
I want to be clear: I’m not saying the pros are weaker than the Zwifters who are beating them. I’m saying they’re making other mistakes which are losing them the race.
One huge mistake is the Zwift algo itself that favours light riders on the flats. Already complained by many pros. They push close to 400W and are overtaken by 50kg guys pushing 280W. Pure nonsense.
I think many of you are way off in terms of analysing a WT top range of abilities. Not being able to surge, to go beyond threshold, to short and hard efforts? Really?
Many of this guys passed thru cyclocross, mtb, crits, all kinds of bike races and events. From the boottom, to the top of the food chain …
They do Classics, they do crazy stages where the events is totally attacked from km1 … These guys are totally freaks.
These guys do lots of short ITT during the year (15-20km) or ultra short ITTs (less than 10km). Do you really thing these guys dont know how to dig deep and hammer totally stupis bursts of power?
This only come to show that are a things that are way out of conection when comparing Zwift with IRL.
Best answer by far.
You nailed it!
Another factor that may be in play is aerodynamic position. Ever notice how seasoned Zwifters stand A LOT? It is one thing to push big watts, but when it comes to real life you can’t just stand up and smash a gear on the road as you be like a sail in the wind. Sans long alpine climbs, pros have been riding in an aero position their whole career.
That’s actually a really good point, Josh. I’ve ridden/raced with some pros IRL, and their form/position is incredible.
There are factors outdoors (eg, posture) that don’t matter indoors. And vice-versa. If you want to compete outdoors, you’ve gotta learn that game. And if you want to compete indoors… you gotta learn THAT game.
In terms of “wimpy setups”, a slower laptop will create more of a lag in power changes during the game or the graphics just look clunky, or both?
It shouldn’t create a lag in power, but poor frame rates will make it harder to see what’s happening. Small screens make it harder to! You just need to be able to see the details of the race around you…
I think the biggest reason the pros are not crushing is that they are trained for a very different type of race. Even once they figure out the Zwift dynamics, they just are not that special over a short distance. There are a lot of guys (and gals) who can put up big numbers for a short race, but couldn’t be pros. That isn’t World Tour racing…..can you put up big numbers after 5 hours of riding? If you had a Pro/Am race that had 5 hours of steady riding before coming to an hour finale, the Zwift heroes likely would not feature. If you had some of the track specialists on Zwift, they would likely do pretty well, because they are training for the short, sharp efforts and less focused on endurance. Same with cyclocross or World Cup MTB. But the road pros training for a different game.
Right. The “Fast Talk” podcast made the same point. There are more than a few amateurs who can put out pro-level 5-minute power, but doing it with 4-5 hours of fatigue in the legs is a whole different story. That’s what separates WT pros from the rest of us.;-)
There are also all the skills of moving in and through the pelton,bike handling, etc. that have real-world value — strength can’t replace them — but are useless in Zwift.
You are wrong. Many WT guys have track background. You can ask Filippo Ganna of INEOS, who is the current individual pursuit world record holder (600W+ for 4 minutes) if he has a problem with short burts of power 🙂
the most recent ‘life in the peleton’ podcast by mitch docker gets into this. he said he started doing zwift races recently and was getting annihilated; he couldn’t believe it and was thankful this wasn’t real life or he’d be out a job. but after a few times and learning what needed to be done, he had gotten things under control. basically, join early, go hard in the beginning, never stop pedaling, and becoming more acclimated to routes. so what eric said.
I’ve actually raced Mitch the last 2 weeks on Innsbruck. First week he was almost dropped every time up the kicker, the second, it was me that got dropped. He also did some amazing bridges. I think the other problem is Zwift is so hard to hold a gap on the flats. You could be doing 500w off the front and a 10 guy pack doing way lower watts ride you down no problem. No way that happens in real life.
It’s well and good lauding the Zwift racers for being able to get the drop on the pro’s, but ultimately, the real cycling kudos will always be earned on the roads. At the end of the day, Zwift is a video game with power ups and achievements, and like any other game, if you have innate knowledge, you’ll have an advantage. For example; just because someone is mustard at Call of Duty, doesn’t mean they’ll be better in battle than a member of the SAS. It’s all about perspective. Take away the bells and whistles and give the pros time around the courses to level the playing field and there’d only be one winner. Or better yet, have the amazing Zwift racers race the pros on the roads after lockdown. I know who my money would be on.
I’m not taking anything away from Zwift or it’s higher echelon of riders because it’s a great fitness app with some extraordinarily fit people. The problem is you cannot compare Zwift racing to outdoor racing in any meaningful way, and disparaging the pros for making rookie mistakes in a game they wouldn’t usually participate in, would be akin to slating a SAS soldier for losing at Call of Duty.
The biggest difference between pros and Zwift racers are that pros have superior bike handling skills in no fear. That dynamic doesn’t exists on Zwift. Put any of the Zwift racers in an “real bike race” and they would get gapped and shelled at the first corner.
If you want a pro’s perspective:
https://www.velonews.com/events/zwift/vn-podcast-inside-zwift-racing-with-leah-thorvilson-and-ashleigh-moolman-pasio/
Just listened to this during my morning ride! I’d say both Leah and Ashleigh’s comments echo my post above. Would you agree, Lyford?
….and take a look at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3T3QD_rYEVQ for Jack Haig’s views (Michelton Scott) on Zwift racing. I think there are more of his interviews to come but some points raised (1) 40 min high intensity bursts are very very different to the ‘real world’ for WT pros, (2) he’s not surprised indoor warriors can beat pros in these one dimensional Zwift scenarios and (3) must get to know Zwift tactics.
Why give pro cyclist tips on Zwift??? This is most likely the only chance a mere mortal can actually beat them in a race!!! Once we are all back on the roads, they will go back to flying by us like we are standing still.
The races are not even close to the same. I’d like to see some Zwift races that were 200K and see how the top Zwift racers do against the pro tour riders then. It is one thing to hold over 400 watts for 40 mins and that be your only effort for the day vs. 5-7 hours in the saddle and then try to hold 400 watts. Just look at Sagan in Richmond or Cancellara at Flanders 2010, that wasn’t a insignificant number of miles before they tore everyone legs off. They trained for these long efforts and then hard efforts, not just the hard effort. Even one stint up Alp de Zwift, doesn’t compare to hitting that climb after several other passes that day and a thousand km on the previous few weeks.
I think we need to be fair about the quality of the pro riders, it this a fun time to see that they are human, but these F1 machines are not on their terrain persa.
Bottom line: real cyclists just have to learn how to cheat like zwift cyclists do, and they will eventually win, like they do in real life.