It happened again this morning.
I was chugging along in zone 2, doing a recon of a new Rebel Route on Zwift’s new southern coast. Halfway through the ride I made the turnaround in the Jungle, then decided I would try to grab a green sprint jersey on one of the four upcoming sprints. (Earlier, I narrowly missed grabbing green on the Acropolis Sprint Reverse, and I needed to prove myself.)
The leaderboard popped up well before the first of four sprints began:
And there it was. A player with no name, running on virtual power (aka a “ZPower Ranger”), had absolutely destroyed everyone else on this sprint. There was no way I’d touch that superhuman time.
And the trend continued… “Dot” had taken the #1 slot on all four sprints, turning in times around 40% faster than the next-best rider.
So I sat up and hung in zone 2. Which, in hindsight, was probably a good thing, it being a ZRL recovery day. But it made me think: why does Zwift still allow riders without smart trainers or a power meter to top the leaderboards?
Virtual Power Basics
“Virtual Power” is Zwift’s solution for riders who don’t use a smart trainer or power meter. Instead, they’re on “dumb” trainers – trainers that don’t plug into electricity, don’t change resistance on virtual hills, and don’t compute power numbers. A dumb or “classic” trainer simply puts resistance on your back tire.
Read all about virtual power on Zwift >
Pair a speed sensor on your back wheel with Zwift, tell Zwift which classic trainer you’re using, and Zwift will use a pre-computed “power curve” for that trainer to estimate your power in game. Wheel spinning at 30kph? You’re doing 190W. Spinning at 40kph? 215W. You get the idea.
There’s just one problem: if you don’t have your classic trainer and back wheel set up properly, or you choose the wrong trainer on the Zwift pairing screen, your numbers can be off. Way off.
Safeguards Against Inaccurate Power
To Zwift’s credit, they’ve built in some safeguards to detect when power readings are too high. Ride too long at too high a power level and you may receive a popup like this:
I assume Zwift has set some power curve limits that basically say “If you hold X W/kg for X minutes, you’re above World Tour pro levels and need to get a warning.” (The above popup occurred exactly 1 hour into a ride where my bot held 7.5 W/kg steady the entire hour.)
However it works, based on my simple test above we can conclude the system isn’t perfect. Too many riders on virtual power are allowed to hold artificially high power for days, with no notice popping up.
Getting It Fixed
So how do we fix this? I have a few ideas.
First, it may make sense to adjust the virtual power limits:
- Currently, if you have selected a particular classic trainer model from Zwift’s list, your power is capped at 1200W. Perhaps this cap should be reduced to, say, 600 watts. (The 1200W limit made sense back in 2014 when fewer riders had smart trainers. Nowadays, if you can sprint at 1200W, you’re probably an experienced rider with a smart trainer or power meter.)
- If you choose an “unsupported” trainer, your power is capped at 400W. This is fine, as long as Zwift has something built in to make sure the rider isn’t flying around at 400W for more than a minute or two. 400W should be the limit, not the cruising altitude.
In fact, it may make sense to adjust all the power limits. As stated above, I had my bot hold 7.5 W/kg (565W) steady to see how long it would take for Zwift to pop up a warning. Nothing popped up until the 1 hour mark! (For reference, Coggan’s chart says 7.6 W/kg for 5 minutes is the top of world-class.)
Secondly, the leaderboards could be changed. Two options here:
- Quick and Dirty: Simply don’t include virtual power users on the leaderboards. (But Zwift is an inclusive place, so I doubt they’ll agree to simply boot ZPower Rangers from the leaderboards. So my second option is…)
- Playing Nice: Hide virtual power users on leaderboards for anyone on a smart trainer/power meter, while the virtual power user simply sees their name as an entry on the leaderboard, inserted into the proper place, but without a ranking number next to it. No green jerseys for virtual power users, but they can see where they rank.
Wrapping It Up
Zwift’s virtual power setup made sense when the beta launched in 2014, but nine years later the indoor cycling space has evolved greatly. Smart trainers are much more affordable and available now, and I would guess that less than 5% of Zwifters are on classic trainers with a speed sensor.
My ideas above may not be the best possible solutions, but they’re a good starting point for discussion. If nothing else, they show that Zwift can make a few changes that will improve the leaderboard experience for smart trainer/power meter users, without major impacts on classic trainer users.
I hope it happens!
Your Thoughts
Whether you’re a smart trainer user or a virtual power holdout, I’d love to hear your thoughts on this. Share below!
I recently saw an Epic KOM leaderboard with an 11 minute time from a zPower rider. Another option would be to show the zPower leaderboard only to zPower riders.
The problem with separate leaderboards is, then you’d have separate green jersey owners. I don’t think you want ZPower riders seeing one set of green jerseys, and everyone else seeing another.
You COULD just give ZPower riders their own leaderboard, with no green jersey given to them. But I think it still wouldn’t be much fun for the ZPower rider, because there are so few of them that they may be the only rider on the leaderboard.
That doesn’t really bother me. The jersey is just #1 on the leaderboard. If zPower gets its own leaderboard, it gets it’s own jersey. Either make the jersey distinctive (eg, brown jersey) or don’t show it to riders who aren’t using zPower. All of the options discussed are fine as far as I’m concerned.
A poo emoji jersey would be perfect! 😂
How about the zpower users get their own different colour Jersey, then they’re just like a different category.
Yes, with a big clown face on both sides! And with a small clown avatar next to the name on the leaderboard. 😊
maybe it would make them consider getting a HUB and upgrade their riding.
Why? maybe they are on a budget and just use Zwift as a means to exercise and its not worth the cost to them to upgrade.
I think the separate leaderboards would be comparable to women’s leaderboards. These are usually also not very densely populated. It doesn’t stop my daughter and my wife from going for those … occasionally.
Hey, Dot gets around!
It is disheartening to get ready to put in a good effort for a sprint and see someone has already posted an unbelievable time (or a world class sprinter is on course). Really dampens the enthusiasm. My efforts might have been higher if the green jersey was obtainable. That’s always a big carrot.
Time for a change.
*shakes fist at Dot*
I agree with the general sentiment on the problem with ZPower. Just one comment: “dot” might just be the result of zwift not showing non-western typesets. For example, looking at any Asian typeset in the Zwifters nearby list on companion, the names are there correctly, but looking at leaderboards I cannot remember ever seeing one. Hence “dot” is not just for hiding, there are names there. Thanks =)
Dot climbed Zwift Hilly KOM in 44 seconds flat yesterday. The closest actual times are 30 sec slower at > 10wkg average. The top of the leaderboard is another spurious result, 2000W/26.7wkg for 48sec 😂
Yeah, I saw Dot on the new Coastal Road crushing every leader board too, so he seems to be quite notorious now…
Last year, I created a Zwift KidZ’s account for my 8 and 10 year old, so they can ride with me. My boy especially loves it! 🙂 Last month he grabbed a Green Jersey and yes, it was unfair to other “real” riders up there, but it sure DID enjoyed it! 😀 I like your second option, but also, I do think ZPower is great, especially for kids on second-hand resistance-trainer on their own 7 speed bike. 😉
That’s a good point, Frederic. We don’t want to discourage kids using the platform!
2 thought/questions: 1) Do riders using ZPower really care about the leaderboards and/or 2) Do they actually believe the power metrics they’re getting?
1, yes. 2, yes. 🙂 if they didnt care or believe they wouldnt “try” so hard when in races.
I used a dumb trainer for two years on Zwift, in races and most hard rides, i was capped at 200w, maybe sneak upto 400w for a spring but as soon as i did the algorithm soon kicked me down to 200w again, so in reality its not worth putting the hard effort in on a dumb trainer as Zwift will soon adjust you down.
I think many ZPower riders believe the numbers, because they don’t have an understanding of power-based training. Ignorance is bliss, as they say…
I saw a post where a zPower rider said something like, “I can only ride along at 400w on my rides”. They have no idea what real power numbes are.
Zwift will kick them down to 200w max, I used to get the warning on my old dumb trainer as soon as i started riding, used to really sack me off, sitting at 200w and being told im exceeding the limits so to speak!!
Weird, maybe it’s which dumb trainer you used. I tested it and was pegged at 400w the whole ride.
Speaking for myself (level 56 on the cheapest possible setup) – 1) Nope, and I get them only when I’m basically alone on the map. 2) No way, I’m well aware of how it works, so I don’t even expect it. I do keep my average values pretty close to real life though.
“zpower” users could have a separate classification, that is, completely separate from those who use power meters or smart trainers.
My thought, and maybe I missed it, but how are you able to tell it is zPower and not a weight doper.
Less, we forget Watopia has the highest population anywhere of 5 foot tall 100lb. riders in the world.
zPower users, like the infamous dot, don’t have the little lightning bolt or power symbol next to their names on either the leaderboard or the rider list on the right.
Unlike 5′ tall and 100lbs, there absolute confirmation that it is ZPower not a connected trainer etc etc…deal with it and eliminate it from the ‘compliant’ population. How that happens is above my subscription price. I leave that to others…Peter
Thanks for going a bit below my vital statistics of 5-4 and 125lbs!! 😀
Fatty😂
I’ve had some run ins like that. Frustrating yes. Great ideas and like the inclusive thought to have people still know where they hold out with the rest.
One thing I’d like to see, is the push to choose a specific type of equipment, ie Wahoo Kickr, Tacx, or any variant of smart bike. While the power connection works at the pairing screen, what of those on spin bikes with power pedals? That is a tricky one to catch.
Why do you need to “catch” someone on a spin bike with power pedals? As long as the power meter pedals are accurate, that setup is fine.
That’s a fair point. My thought was with no free wheeling and high spin from the weight of the wheel allows for continuing interia, low power input could trick the system. Similar to increased tension, with high power and low cadence could cause a higher speed output. It’s theoretical.
Theoretical but wrong. A spin bike with a power meter feeds the wattage number to Zwift, just like a smart trainer. Low power input won’t “trick” the system, Zwift doesn’t care one bit about flywheel speed when using a power meter.
There’s currently a rider racing in Cat D that has a spin bike with power meter pedals. He has his weight listed at 388 ish lbs and shows an FTP of 432. Do you think it’s possible for a Cat D rider to have this kinda avg power with less than a year of riding experience? He said that he started on Zwift to lose weight and that’s awesome. (he has a youtube channel) Then he started racing at the end of June this year and seems to have caught the Zwift racing bug. Is Zwift just looking at w/kg… Read more »
He is 175 kg, obviously he is putting high wattage, but only 2.5 w/kg, totally legit. I am half his eight, so at same speed he needs to produce double the watts. So me at 200 watts = him at 400 watts.
It doesn’t really matter that it’s only 2.5w/kg, the fact that he, as an obese person, has an FTP that would put most pros to shame is insane. I don’t care how heavy you are, you’re not getting an FTP of 432w without being seriously fit and very strong.
kg vs. lbs confusion? 🤔😆
His big advantage is that speed is not just a factor of W/kg. Straight up pure Watts is huge factor. So his 2.4 W/kg is double the actual Watts for my same 2.4 W/kg. Looking at just Watts, as Zwift does at some point, he goes faster than I do. I believe Eric wrote about this a few years back.
Hey Eric,
Totally Agree… But if You can’t get Zwift’s attention..Who can?
We all know that Cheats are a part of the Game, and what is really sad
is that person that is the Zwift Troll, and just loves to do what they do.
Anyway hopefully Zwift listens, and continues to try and work on these
type of issues… I know very little how Zwift functions, but I’m sure their
Tech Dept could/can sort this out with a simple touch if the Keys?
… # fingerscrossed
This is never going to happen you don’t cap people who brings you revenue you may piss off some people but i guess that doesn’t seem important compared to the number of zpower users who are happy to get huge (and obviously fake) numbers
Whether it was a bot or a zpower user, in the ToW recently I saw the fastest person did the volcano climb in half the time of second place. I don’t want to exclude anyone, but I think it makes sense to have some kind of limit on accounts whose figures go that far above what a human could achieve.
I’m usually about half or two-thirds of the way down any leaderboard with a time about twice that of the fastest, and I’m comfortable with that at my age, weight and general fitness. But it is still annoying when I see someone at the top of a KoM or sprint in half the time of the next bunch.
It’s time to table your ego. If you want verified results try MyWHoosh races with dual power requirements.
LOL
I’ve been saying this for years, considering the low ratio of zpower riders they really find the top spots on the leaderboards quite often. Really annoying….
I doubt I’m the norm but zpower imitates my irl power near perfectly. I don’t use my good bikes on my trainer to prevent corrosion and wear on expensive components. I sweat a lot. And ironically a buddy in a smart trainer that I can’t catch in zwift I can out ride IRL.
I’ve used wheel on trainers. Magnetic and fluid. None compare to a direct drive smart trainer.
My opinion. Zwift should keep an even playing field in respect that it’s a smart trainer platform only. Have to pay to play.
As was stated. Smart trainers have come down in price. A Smart trainer today, in price, isn’t far off what a resistance trainer was 20yrs ago.
This article brought back bittersweet memories of my first months on Zwift in 2020. When I first joined I had a spin bike and used a speed sensor. But my spin bike wasn’t in the list so I chose the one that seemed to give me the most realistic result. Like you said, I was capped at 400 watts. But I always did 400 watts! It was glorious! (I should go back and see what my average heart rate was back then. Probably just above resting!) When I started racing my “sprints” were also capped at 400 watts, and I… Read more »
See, that’s just crazy. Zwift needs to detect that silliness.
Yes, a spin bike with speed sensor won’t be accurate at all. Speed of the flywheel is dictated only by cadence, not power. I did a ZwiftInsider article on that, the results were hilarious. https://zwiftinsider.com/spin-bike-test/
I read that article! At that exact time I was going to buy a set of power pedals for my spin bike, but decided to take the leap and buy a smart bike. Great article!
There should be an option to reset all your stats (not level or drops, just PBs, all-time best power curve, etc.). Hide it away and put a double confirmation dialog on it (“Are you sure?”, “Are you really really sure … can’t be undone”) but that would be really useful not just in your case. There will also be people coming back from injury that might not want to get constantly reminded of how much performance they have lost.
Totally agree.
I think, as Eric, as implied, Zpower is a hang over from an earlier time and that time has gone, except for, as Fredric as posted for children just ‘playing’ till they get the real bug. The other demographic are the those who are just starting and want to see if they like it before buying a smart trainer. How about a time limited/distance membership?
Mute ZPower function is the best for me.
Enable it, then remove all ZP riders from a screen, including all of leader boards.
Enable and disable, it can be switched manually.
As a former “dumb” trainer user I can see how frustrating this could be. I started using zwift in January of 2023. My plan was to use zwift to train during the cold winter season but had no interest in the competitive aspect of zwift. I just wanted indoor training to not be so boring. I quickly noticed the difference when climbing hills and doing sprints. Hill climbing was easy!!! If I wanted to feel a climb I had to shift to a hard gear to add resistance. I can see how this would be a disadvantage to those riding… Read more »
What % of users start with out a power meter? What is the cheapest power setup with true power?
I think the percentage would be really small. As for the cheapest setup, you can now get second-hand wheel-on smart trainers such as the Tacx Flow or Vortex for as little as £50 in the UK. So about the equivalent of 4 months’ Zwift subscription.
My thoughts would go along the lines of why give ZP riders credibility, as the performances are in most cases not representative of their actual performance. If they were on a properly calibrated smart trainer they would not be getting any rewards. I think it probably puts the first seeds of gaming the system into riders minds. As Eric says just have them in game but don’t credit the performance, if asked why they can’t get a jersey, the say if you upgrade your trainer then they will be open for you to compete in. Win win for Zwift (hub)
Where “super athletes” really bother me is in the races. I think it’s unfortunate that Zwift ignores it. Over the past year I have done a lot of races, and it is rare a Race, where this “pro racers”, who do 40min at >4.8w/kg with an average heart rate below 140/145bpm. You get into this athlete’s avatar and they do 7.5w/kg with >95rpm easily with 137/140bpm🧐🧐
I think it’s worth recognising that no ‘power’ meters are directly measuring power. So yeah, if you think it’s ridiculous that Zpower setups save cost on per item hardware and maintenance by putting the logic to infer power from a non-power measurement on a Zwift device, fair enough. Don’t kid yourself, the ‘power meter’ with the onboard logic is also inferring power from other measurements. Anything else is marketing, wishful thinking, and justification for a premium price point. It’s a little bit like comparing stitching between two bags with different labels made in the same factory, in my opinion. Who’s… Read more »
You missed it on so many points.
You definitely don’t understand how power meters work, or what power is.
I bet the number of dumb trainers in use on Zwift is still well over 5%. I’d guess 15-20%, at least. I still see a lot of names in the list on the right without a lightning symbol when I ride. Although I wonder if your Dot is a bot. It does not bother me at all, though, if zPower riders are on the leaderboards. I still give it a go. If I come in second to a zPower rider, then I tell myself I won. Even when there isn’t a zPower rider, and I do get the jersey, I… Read more »
It could be worse, you should check out the Strava leaderboard for runners on the Volcano Circuit CW, there are 5 people who can hold sub 4 for the entire 2.5 mile loop. The thing is, I’ve never understood why people knowing set impossible marks while running or riding.
I guess it all comes down to what people are trying to get out of their ride/run.
id love to see an addition to the warmup pens; all riders will have their virtual trainer on the warmup, so instead of everyone on a “wheel-on” as we do know, we can visually see who is on what type of trainer in the pen as a reference. it would be cool to see those on a tacx, or wahoo, etc … not that it matters to anything.
I personally think that zPower rider should just be ghosted- they can see us, but we can’t see them. That would mean they can ride however they want to ride but they won’t pull races apart by doing steady 450W on the flats and slowly ejecting riders out the back in ones and twos. That is hands-down my biggest annoyance with Zwift.
Amen! They have a huge impact even if they are later removed from results.
Ahh Zwift and segments. No different to IRL KOMs where someone is clearly on a motorcycle or ebike holding 30km constant speed up at 14% gradient hill. I just ride on and make a personal mental note that despite being 2nd place, I’m really #1
I agree Eric!
Just as frustrating as those people on ebikes who take KOM’s on Strava.
I concur 100%! I will assume this Mr/Ms Dot was the same bot/person I saw. I tried to report them but couldn’t find them. The user is obviously not in this for personal growth, they are in it for messing with the system. They need to be gone…including any other accounts that they have not using a PM. Wheel-on-trainer with PM, should also be celebrated and properly spun down, or their wattages should be managed by the platform as well. zPower, as it is, is garbage for Zwift. For those who don’t have a PM, wattage should be maxed out… Read more »
I have a friend who can’t keep up with me on the road but destroyed me on zwift. He uses rollers…..
Hard to get upset at this anymore. The reality is that outside of zPower there are trainer and power meter differences as well. If folks don’t calibrate or tighten the wheel-on adjustment, well you know the deal. Simply put you typically get what you paid for…more expensive setups are generally more accurate.
It’s not just ZPower riders that are a problem on the Zwift leaderboards either, it turns out that people riding on “Banded Rides” are having their times added to the leaderboards as well, so for instance there was someone I saw the other day with a sub 60mins Alpe time done at about 140Watts! The segment leaderboards can’t be taken seriously anymore unfortunately, unless you’re solely looking at your own times for comparison over time etc!
To be fair, that’s a random Zwift bug that they haven’t bothered to fix vs someone just using an inaccurate piece of equipment for every single ride.
In India, a Kickr Core is 1000$. Wish it were available at close to US prices. Zwift Hub is not sold here.
I’m sure there are many such countries where it’s a similar story.
Zwift loves to take our monthly subscription though.
Eric, I fully second but this is a never ending story. More than 2 years ago I was talking to Zwift & Strava support about questionable segment results. Both said it’s not their call to intervene unless it’s a bug. At this time meetups keeping all together let the group flew up ascents screwing up cleaned Strava segments as you may remember. No clue if this has been fixed yet. And as you wrote in 2020, Zwift relies finally on power & weight to determine your speed. It’s simple math – reduce your weight by 10 % so you will… Read more »
Strava or Zwift, I work on the basis that if someone is ahead of me on a leaderboard, they have cheated and I ignore them. Since I’m old and slow, there are a lot of cheats out their 😀
beeping spelling. there not their
I would argue that a true recovery day is Z1 without any sprints.
Eric, Thanks for addressing this issue. While I agree with many of the comments above as to why this Zpower problem might not be the fault of a rider, I still believe that any Zpower rider who consistently takes segment leaderboard top spots and/or drops the whole field in races is not some newbie who doesn’t understand power, but is instead a blatant cheater who knows exactly what he (or she) is doing. This is especially true when you see it’s the same rider over and over (Dot has been doing this for a long time). If this weren’t the… Read more »
Zwift won’t change this. They know Eric Schlange isn’t going to go start IndieVeloInsider.com instead (do I need to register that?). They know the rest of us that mostly love Zwift will just continue to tolerate the dysfunction, meanwhile they don’t have to risk losing a user base because they hurt their feelings. I feel that’s the same reason we have two sets of race results for every Zwift race
Presumably Zwift know just what proportion of riders (or racers if we are just focussing on that) use non smart trainers. I think it would be great for Zwift to share that information and somehow share the trainer source so all riders can see what each other is using. It at least helps riders see what the ‘playing field’ is like – even if they suspect it not to be level!
Just to play devils advocate, it’s the haves vs the the haves not…you shouldn’t be worried what other people are doing on zwift. There’er plenty of other cheats that even the haves use….
Don’t allow them in races either, they mess up every brakeaway
For me its simple, i ride and workout for myself. To get better/stronger/healthier. I dont cheat myself mentally. If you knowingly chose to cheat you are cheating on yourself.
In olden times it was possible to set a flag in the Zwift preferences file on the PC platform called “Ignore God Messages.” Setting this to true had the effect of making the popup messages for setup and power issues (the so called God messages) not appear to the user, and presumably to also not have any effect on the user. I don’t know if it is still active or not in the current code base, but if it is, that may be a reason why some users can seemingly operate beyond the bounds of what Zwift considers reasonable without… Read more »
i’m on the Zwift Hub One
i couldn’t care less about other rider with high power etc
i don’t race i just do my own thing
i love Zwift and it does what i need it to do🙂
It would be easy for Zwift to check up the notorious cheaters like Dot. Yes, everybody should be allowed to ride in Zwift, but only attend races on smarttrainers. We have ZwiftPower.com for making it as real as possible. Just like electric bikes are not allowed in real races, trainers that are wrong or easy to cheat with should not be allowed in races.
PS! I’m an amateur just winning over myself but still want it fair.
Agreed, but let’s do the same with rubber-banded club rides too.
For example, people are climbing the AdZ in under an hour averaging less than 1 W/kg, yet collecting the under-an-hour badge and even a K/QOM.
For many people, an hour will never be achievable, so it’s great that there is an option that encourages them to participate. On the other hand, it’s unfair to provide rewards and badges that suggest that their effort was greater than it actually was