Note: for the lastest news on Zwift Racing Score, see our post What’s happening with Zwift Racing Score?
It was big news when Zwift began testing their new Zwift Racing Score (ZRS) metric in early July, because that meant results-based race categorization could be coming soon.
Now, around 3 months into testing, Zwift is putting the final touches on ZRS and preparing to release it as the de facto race categorization method on the platform.
Let’s look at the latest tweaks Zwift has made to ZRS, and how they plan to roll it out.
Racing Score Changes
In a recent forum post, Zwift outlined the latest changes made to the scoring algorithm. (Some of these changes may have not yet rolled out quite yet, but they will all be live very soon):
- Podium Bonuses: The top 3 finishers in each scored race are now receiving a podium bonus meant to help move racers up a category faster if they are regularly winning.
- Finalized Subgroup Score Ranges: Zwift has defined the score ranges they will use for Zwift-owned races and recommend for community organizers. (For more information, see this forum topic.)
- Faster Score Calculation: Scores are calculated and adjusted as each racer crosses the finish line, instead of being finalized after 12 hours to account for DNF’s. This will eliminate issues where individual scores would drop when checking the day after a race.
- 3×10-Minute Activity Requirement: Riders must now have at least three 10+ minute activities recorded in the last 90 days in order to race a scored event. This helps ensure an accurate seed score, to improve initial subgroup placement.
- ZwiftPower Score Range Filters: ZwiftPower.com will be updated so users can continue tracking General Classification (GC) standings after event series like the Zwift World Series move to score-based subgroups.
- Bug Fix for Stuck Low Scores: Zwift says they’ve “fixed an issue where scores that drop too low get stuck with low values even after winning several races.”
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Potential Changes
ZRS is graduating from Zwift Labs “beta” status in October, but it may continue to evolve over time. Zwift says they are investigating the following changes:
- Enhancing the seed algorithm to incorporate a broader range of historical data, considering the performance of racers who are transitioning back indoors after an outdoor riding season
- Measures to prevent intentional score manipulation
- Category enforcement applied when joining an event instead of at sign up
- An historical view of how your score has changed over time
Those all sound like great improvements to me!
Rollout Plan
As promised, Zwift will be rolling out ZRS in October! It will be used in the following events beginning on the given dates:
- Zwift World Series – Round 2 (Sep 16)
- ZRacing Monthly – Community Racing Festival (Oct 7)
- Zwift Racing Clubs (Oct 7)
- Zwift Academy – Makeup Races (Oct 28-Nov 4)
- Community Racing Events (Oct 7)
The last item, “Community Racing Events”, is a big one! While the first four items listed are all Zwift-owned events, that final item includes all races organized by the Zwift community. In talking to Zwift, they stated that their intention is to have all community-organized races shown on the public events calendar moved ZRS by October 7.
Private events can still use the old category enforcement groups or other systems, and ZRL and WTRL Thursday TTTs will not be using ZRS due to their custom categorization schemes.
This means that effectively every race you’ll see on the events calendar will be using ZRS beginning October 7.
Seed Score Reset and Details
On September 25, Zwift reset everyone’s Racing Score to their seed score. (Anecdotally, my score went from 589 – a score based on results in several scored races – to my pure seed score of 591. It seems like Zwift’s seed score algorithm has me pinned quite accurately!)
More about seed score:
That score is calculated based on your maximum power outputs for 30 seconds (CP30) and 10 minutes (CP600) from the past 90 days. These data points were selected after analyzing hundreds of thousands of combinations to ensure the most accurate and reliable base score calculation possible.
This extensive analysis allowed us to fine-tune the scoring model, ensuring it reflects a racer’s true performance across various metrics and conditions. It’s important to note that CP30 and CP600 are not equally weighted in the scoring process; the longer effort (CP600) has a greater influence on the final score. These values are normalized by weight and adjusted for fairness across performance levels, resulting in a seed score between 0 and 1000.
Zwift
Wrapping It Up
This latest round of updates and event changes looks to be the final major evolution of Zwift Racing Score prior to its big launch. And that big launch is big news! Zwift Racing Score superseding power-based categories will literally change the game when it comes to Zwift Racing.
It hasn’t been easy to differentiate the signal from the noise when it comes to racers offering their feedback on ZRS vs other categorization methods. (Are racers complaining because categories have shifted and they’re no longer at the top, or do they have legitimate complaints?) But our poll in August seemed to indicate that ZRS was a big improvement, and this latest round of tweaks addresses some of the key remaining complaints we’ve seen (like riders winning but not moving up fast enough, and riders being seeded at too low of a category).
I, for one, see ZRS as a major improvement over the old power-based scheme. And I’m hopeful that ZRS will improve even more with the latest changes and wider usage. Let’s race!
Your Thoughts
Are you excited to see ZRS rolling out across all of Zwift racing? Got concerns? Share your thoughts below!
First! And I definitely see ZRS combined with category enforcement as a big win for the platform. Like a slot machine, everyone should race against a field of competitors (humans) where they occasionally, but not regularly, see the podium. That will keep em hooked!
That I disagree with completely. Zwift is such a skill based game as well as a fitness one.
99% of people waste unbelievable amounts of energy and do not deserve to win much if at all.
Some, race cleverly in all races, do recons and learn every gradient change, they certainly deserve to win more.
Simply turning up and pushing the pedals hard does not entitle an occasional win, if one at all.
Losers wanted this. But losers will remain losers
I’ve not raced many slot machines, but I think I could probably get an edge in an uphill finish, they’d crucify me on a downhill though! If Zwift got the seed score in the right ball park we might have a chance. That’s impossible though as they hand a massive bias towards lighter riders who can have much more wkg power and stay low in the rankings. This cannot and will not work and will drive riders away from racing on Zwift, if you looked at the numbers on ZP for the Pinarello series, the biggest enties have changed away from the 6.10PM and 7.10PM ZRS time slots to the 4.10PM, 5.10PM and even 8.10PM time slots. I think that says it all
I did my first race under the new system Sunday, was in the mid-band where most racers were holding about 3w/kg. The winner held 4.5w/kg. I think it’s going to take a couple of months of everyone racing under the new system to move the riders into the correct ZRS bands.
I feel like I was in this same race — these bands are just way too big, I was dying, my best 20 min is in the 3.8 – 3.9 range and the winner just beasted away. Literally no difference from A-B-C with A level guys crushing B’s. Total failure from racing score after a promising start…
I think Zwift really messed up with this, because they didn’t think about racers taking the summer off of Zwift to actually race (in the case of my race, that’s exactly who “won”). What they should have done is setup a system where riders were seeded into the new system based on their calculated ZRS score, or an equivalent based on their existing CE category, whichever is higher. That would have kept “A” level racers from showing up in the “350-520” band (which I’d consider a Cat 4 IRL), and then let them move as their results fit. But, like the constant changes to the levels, Zwift doesn’t manage a program, they react
In a word… no.
Not excited one bit.
The biggest issue with the old system was that the categories were too wide and that encouraged people to stay down.
This system by its mathematical nature makes that even worse. The ranges in categories will and are huge.
It is quite simply awful for anyone that races well with good race craft. (Most dont).
All that needed to happen was :
– less races (far too many with too few people in each).
– half the size of the categories (the range was just unsurmountable for most people).
– add a small (very small) results skew to the power to tip people over the edge if they are right on it.
This was not the answer.
“… that encouraged people to stay down. This system by its mathematical nature makes that even worse.” 👀
If people want to stay down by turning in poor race results, I won’t stop them …
Zwifting since 02/2024. Beginning FTP was <150 and now plateaued at 210. Once my w/kg hit 2.7 I was bumped to 'C' even though the only time I podium was in small groups of 5 or less. I like the competition of the race but often finishing in the bottom half. Most races I am riding solo after getting dropped by the lead group and then catching others the get dropped later. That is the race that I often compete in, the dropped group.
At 67 my HR has often hit 170 at the final sprint and can't help but wonder if I will need to call an EMT one of these days 😅
I do resent being called a loser Federico Bandini because I literally give all I got.
Oh, and l like whiskey too.
I agree. I have a high racing score because I race smart…not because I’m a wkg beast. I can barely contest in Zwift Labs races because I am a C going up against strong B’s and I get trounced. It means I have to cherry pic short flat races in order to compete.
But “cherry picking” races will make the whole thing even worse 🤦
Under the old system, a rider could with the front bunch in D and put in just enough effort to podium and claim the ‘win’. This can’t happen long term with a system that rewards performance rather than just power.
Just you wait, you won’t be able to stay with the strong riders in D anymore, you’ve probably got a few old B cat riders in there too. They’ll be leaving you behind whenever they feel like it. Just look at the wkg differential between top and bottom of all categories other than A
But isn’t that the point? If they beat me or podium, their score will go up and at some point they will get upgraded. Under the old system as long as they don’t average over 2.6 they will stay there forever.
I want to be rewarded for winning or beating people, not just for losing weight. The only people this should be a problem for are those who complain about being upgraded and can’t podium regularly any more.
I mean you can believe that and in a world where everyone goes all out every time, you might get the race environment you desire. Being realistic, if riders played the game of staying in low categories to win when based on wkg, they can definitely play the don’t do so well in a few and stay in the category below too. If we had 100% of racers being true to themselves all of the time every system would work. I think replacing a system that took a degree of effort to fool and moving to a system where no effort is required to fool it, isn’t the most forward thinking of methods. Again, if the seed score was pretty accurate, riders wouldn’t mind moving up a league, but as we all know the difference between a top C and a mid B is pretty daunting and you could be doomed to it for 90 days. The way they seed this means there are far too many wrongly placed riders both under scored and over scored and not just slightly, which is what will prevent it from self correcting over time
It is already known how to effectively tank your score so you can be in the cat you want and stay there forever.
I tested it this weekend and dropped 87 points in two hours of racing. Did a race today, got 3rd and only gained 12 points. Meaning I can do 7 races every time before I have to let myself get dropped again to my floor score. It took me one weekend to go from seed score to floor score.
So what you are hoping isnt going to happen. The ZRS isnt the holy grail a lot are thinking and hoping for.
The chosen seeding score power durations are nonsense.
For the last ~2.5+ years, races have run under Category Enforcement, with pen limits on zMAP (~6mins predicted W/Kg) and zFTP (~60mins predicted W/Kg).
In such pens, of course a 30sec sprint is going to be often going to be the deciding factor of who finishes well, as there is a limit to aerobic ability without getting a pen promotion.
How many regular race courses have hills where a racer from any pen will take 10mins+ to climb, if they chose to attack it at VO2 Max? Very few, especially for A pen riders!
A seed score based on ability to climb a hill like Petit KOM, typically approx 4-8mins, would act as a much better metric to initially seed racers to a starting pen before results dictate Racing Score movement.
In addition, there is currently far stronger correlation to pure Watts for time duration to produce seed scores, compared to W/Kg. The more hilly a course is, the more farcical the current seed score pen allocations are… And Racing Score can currenly only drop 15% below seed score, so some won’t be able to drop their Racing Score enough to drop a pen in a ZwiftHQ event to get a better experience.
@Eric Schlange Is there any statistic of where riders of the old power base categorisation are classified in the ZRS system? My impression (and is only that), si that the ZRS works well with B and C category powered riders because they are the majority of Zwift Racers. Also, we will ahve a 5 or a 10 category system, because both have been used in the Pinarello Series.
ZRS is rolling out as a 5-category setup by default. Race organizers can do it differently if they want, though.
I don’t have those stats, no. Would love to see them though!
Do a survey
ZRS for C and B riders is where it’s at it’s worst! CE made categories larger and now this expands them even further. If you’ve been a C rider you’ll know that having a few A cat light women in a C race completely blows it up as they can just ride away from you. Well welcome to the world of lightweight but higher power riders doing the same and when you hit a climb it’s like cycling up it and watching someone in a Ferrari go shooting off in the distance……All above board though because their seed score says they’re in the right category. Yes they may go up, but everytime a new rider comes onto the platform, an old one returns or they decide to loose a few points they’ll be back through again. RIP Zwift racing for the masses.
I`m a low d, and with 5 categories in ZRS, there are several C riders in the lowest category, some even doing 3 WKg average in the race.
Watching people shooting off into the distance as soon as we hit a climb has been my entire Zwift experience in CE B. “The magical world where my 5 minute power can be less than my opponent’s 20 minute power, yet we ride in the same pen.”
I can’t say definitively that ZRS will be better for Zwift racing as a whole (Zwiftracing.app is still the gold standard for categorization as far as I’m concerned) but it’s not like things could really be much worse for those of us at the very bottom of categories.
It will be worse, now you can have riders in the same penvwith higher wkg for 20 mins than other riders 1 minute power. The system is crazy
Exactly, zwiftracing.app is so dialed in. Zwift would have been better off just buying that and implementing it rather than making a mess trying to design their own results based categorization.
The ZRS seed scores are a mess.
Dialed in? It’s a nonsense. Riders use the ladder to remain in their categories riders use others races to remain in their categories. It’s a great system if you want to pick a category and stick in it. The zrCS score is miles out too, but I will say not as far out as ZRS. Someone accused me of just wanting the wkg categories because I could win, well I don’t win in wkg cats, however I do in ranking app and can continually as I will play it just to show how bad it is (at least I’m honest about it and don’t sing it’s praises only to do exactly the same as I do). There are still riders that are miles above me though due to the zrCS calculation method. I’ve opted out as it’s just painful and they listen maybe even less than Zwift. If someone actually came up with a decent method to initially grade categories then a ranking system might work as the jump between categories wouldn’t be massive, but when you start with the massive power differentials we see in both zrCS and ZRS base score calculations, they can never be the solution. It would be good to see the Zwift ZRS formula as I believe it’s a joke
Not looking forward to it at all.
It is rushed
Not thought through
Doesnt solve any of the problems we had with CE
Seed calculation is a disaster
Its not a Racing Score, it is a Zwift score.
Can you explain why you think it is rushed and not thought through? I’d love to hear more specifics so I can better understand the new score.
Sure, I will give it a try.
We began testing in July an dnow 3 months later we suddenly get to use it in every race there is while even Zwift acknowledges there are still things wrong wiht the calculation. They are still looking into the heavy sprinter being overrated. They said that after three days in the testing and after three months it is still there and they are looking into it but dont want to rush. Well if your calculation still isnt correct for some of your paying customers, why release it ? We dont know how long it will take but it can ruin the experience for some quite heavy. And to counter that they will just play the system and get themself dropped. Something we also wanted to prevent with this new system. If they were set on their correct score they might not have done that.
If I see a new score coming it doesnt take much more than 10 minuts to come up with things I want to see.
History of my score.
How much my score went up after a race and not just a new total (and that is also for everyone else in a race. A new total is meaningless if you dont also see the rise or fall.
Having to wait 12 hours or to the next day for a final score is a failure.
ZP isnt ready at all for the ZRS. We cant see our ZRS score there and we cant see the scores from others when looking at a race we might want to join.
Also there is no ZRS ranking over there.
Those are things who come up within a minute and I am really shocked Zwift hasnt thought of those things and build it before the live release. It just isnt finished yet, and I would not have mind waiting for a few months extra for this to all be implemented and we have gotten a way more finished ZRS than what we get now.
It’s based on ZRapp which is 2years old. That’s based on systems used for years. Zwift has had it in test for nearly a year.
It’s also data based so can be modelled to an extent for more information
ZRapp is based on a formula used by under 23 TTT teams to try and match riders in a Team TT race. I think they were looking at trying to match riders with sub 65kg weights. ZRapp has these massive weight bias calculations for their zrCS base score too, but I actually think ZRS ones are worse. They like Zwift have never listened and their system is easily manipulated too. I grt the story, but yge reality is don’t work unless everyone races hard and honestly all the time. We know that isn’t going to happen though
I’m not sure ZRS is the answer for lower cat riders such as myself (High-ish D, ZRS 225).
The D cat races were fun, I’ve only ever won once, but consistently finish top 10 and usually feel like I am in contention until the final sprint. The ZRS races were usually over by the first few KM’s, so would find myself in the second or third group on the road and picking up a top 20 if I was lucky.
Looking at the start list of a D cat race I can see I’m up against fairly equal competition, but with the ZRS, there a racers that can push numbers I could only dream of!
Of course it’s not all about winning, but I don’t feel much motivation to race at the moment, I’m sure I’m not the only one. Hopefully the system will be refined, but I don’t feel it is ready to come out of BETA yet.
totally agree, as a high D (currently C because of some climbing in the Alps over summer;-) it was very competitive and had to use my zwift racing skills to be in the mix with CE , last week i did a couple of zwift labs races (getting over another injury but at 95%) I was 5 mins behind the lead group on a 30-45 min race, why? because i have a high 30 sec but a low 10 min and cannot hold 3 w/kg. The only chance of competitive racing will be in races with a LOW category (200-300) as my ZRS (reset to 265) cannot possibly compete with racers in the high end of the 200-350 category. Even with a 15% reduction to ‘floor’ it will be sad and lonely racing for me, ever hopeful it will sort itself out….
Overall a welcome improvement from my experience as a B. That said I am really missing the large prime time Monday zracing under the old system. I don’t care if I come 40th against 120+, the race is faster and more engaging with more riders. Now it is a race for top 5 of 12-18 for me, (not always) but often a much slower finishing time and not a special race worthy of live coverage as it once was.
I think we can see from the entries how popular ZRS is at the 6.10PM and 7.10PM BST time zone, which initially were the busiest time slots. Now the 4.10PM and 5.10PM have gone massive as they use CE also the 8.10PM has grown. Surely Zwift can look at the wkg numbers across the field and ask, does this look fair???
People care about “rank points” and GC more than ZRS. The interesting test is how to make them revert back. All races being ZRS would probably do it, but lots of Bs are top tier racing score (and top 50 ranked on Zpower ranking). So the “hot race” will be quite different under ZRS. Assume the same is true through C and D
Great news! ZRS getting iterated and integrated into more events is a win-win. All of the races I’ve done with ZRS were so much better than CE it’s beyond comprehension. Every single one was a solid peloton for nearly the entire race and I managed to be in the mix every time. Contrast that with the CE races I’ve done when I get dropped 5 minutes in and finish by myself or with the grupetto.
For those of you complaining about ZRS, apparently you haven’t done a race before CE. Those were the worst with sandbaggers fouling up EVERY single lower cat races. CE was a major step forward and ZRS is going to be also. Remember, it’s only a video game! Right…😆
If you think ZRS will cope with the sandbagging you are greatly mistaken.
I don’t imagine you were racing Zwift a coupla years ago before they started enforcing the categories. We screamed about that for quite a while before they required riders to race in the category they were slotted into. CE was much better but Diesels with big 20 minute power and no sprint at all, like me, found themselves in Cat A getting dropped in the first 5 minutes of a race. ZRS made it fun for me and I imagine when this settles down, it’ll be an improvement for the majority of racers on Zwift. This is going to be Race Result cats. Yeah, people can pull up to keep their racing score down but what’s the point of that? You race for results. This is what it is.
That’s due to the fact that the zMAP and zFTP calculation worked against diesel engines and helped short term power riders stay in the lower category whilst promoting the diesels. Category enforcement was and is a good idea, but the category calculation systems are going from bad to worse.
Ok so we know the sales pitch, riders that win move up etc, but all these ranking systems are so easy to manipulate. This is actual going to really kill Zwift Racing, which is already struggling day to day. The seed score calculation is poles apart from creating reasonably graded races as was seen with the Zwift World Series Races this weekend Races had massive power differentials, meaning high quality racers were seeded much to far down the scoring range. This will lead to continual movement through the D,C and B categories, which will never correct itself over time. There were riders at the top of the category averaging more wkg for 20 mins than riders placed lowers 1 min max. That’s just ridiculous and points to the fact the seeding formula is miles out. This needs some serious thought before its released. Why don’t they tell us how they calculate the score (actual formula) and their thinking behind it? The only good news for me is I can cancel my membership after ZRL.
30s for seeding is deeply flawed. It will not work itself out over time, as there will always be new/returning riders. Could easily take 5-10 races for a clearly underseeded rider to be ‘corrected’ by the system.
Multiply that across all riders and categories and it just goes on for ever.
System puts high C sprinters in the same pen as A+ non-sprinters, in the name of ‘fair racing’. Fundamentally broken from the start, and the death of public racing on Zwift.
Couldn’t agree more. I did a Racing Score race and I was against high Bs and low As and I’m a C with a sprint. The issue is that I got dropped like a stone before 10km so it didn’t matter how much better my sprint was against the other riders as I was about 4minutes behind them….!!
Agreed.
Yesterday’s rave was the most demoralising I have ever done.
Competing against people able to do 4.7W/kg endurance as a C cat.
It was a joke.
I buried myself up Titans and just managed to hang on.
Then at the base of the climb I got dropped.
I didn’t just lose, I got beaten by EIGHTEEN minuted.
Sorry but that is not even close to fair seeding.
Utter rubbish
Before ZRS I was barely a “B” rider, when I did my first ZRS race, the majority of the pack was in the 3.0 w/kg range, so that actually worked to my advantage. Instead of finishing back-of-pack, I was able to race mid-pack (and got my backside handed to me in the 3-up sprint at the end). The winner of the race held 4.5 w/kg, is listed as an “A” racer with a ZRS of “478”, and is a pro-athlete.
Zwift says they’re “considering” a look-back to more than 90 days to calculate seed score which would essentially bring back “A” riders back into the system as “A” riders (and “B” as “B”, etc.). That would help with the “September Suck ®” all the lower-cat riders have to deal with as higher riders come back from their Summer Zwift break. We’ll see if they follow through on that.
With regards to 30s power though, I don’t think we’ll see any meaningful change. It’s a trash metric for categorizing race pens but it seems they’re pretty committed to it despite the evidence that it does nothing to improve race matchmaking.
Although there are issues with it (lack of power meters for one), it still blows my mind that they don’t take outdoor riding into account AT ALL.
Zwift are on a hiding to noting with trying to decide how to group people together for races and will never keep everyone happy just as the comments are showing.
The shouldn’t let community organisers create additional categories as they see fit as all races should use the came categories.
Its very early to say. Though I am excited to see how it all settles once regular racers have 10 to 20 races behind them (not tiny races).
This is when we will see whether the score is working. We have far too much energy spent worrying about the seed score, if ZRS does/doesn’t works it will show up when we have real race history. If all those high wkg riders start winning everything, they will get promoted. If they don’t win everything then maybe they are in the right category.
I really wish Zwift would ditch wkg as the main KPI. Its not what wins most zRaces. It’s speed, momentum, acceleration, and the ability to recover and repeat that wins races. WKG is for Hill Climbs
I hope there is some community clean-up that removes the last few iterations of race categories from events. There are still A = 4.0 races out there, A = 4.2 races, cat enforcement on, etc., etc.
Ideally we get to a simplifcation of the experience. “User wants to join a race” as a feature should be a button that says “join race” and the category is automatic. This might even reduce the level of emotion around people who feel hard done by because racing is hard.
Is it possible to track one’s score anywhere? It would interesting to see how it rises and falls without having to keep notes.
Not yet. Zwift sounds like they’re going to roll that out though.
So events are still categorized by w/kg but upgrade process is based solely on power output? Makes no sense and difficult for bigger guys unless we lie about our weight. Guess I’m going to start trying out the competition
It makes no sense because zwift have done a terrible job explaining it, maybe fearing that if they explain it properly people will try to exploit aspects of it. It’s far from perfect, but it’s not as bad as their description might make it sound.
It’s seeded by power then goes up or down based on results. So initial cat is power based but there is variation based on results.
The power seeding score is ongoing, on a 90-day rolling window, that really should go back to last northern hemisphere turbo season (so ~9 months).
Every single week in the Tiny Races, there are racers returning from their outdoor summer and blowing up pens E and D at least, because these riders really should be in A/B/C.
There’s a weight bias though, that means lower weight riders are starting too low and higher weight riders start too high, yes the lower weight rider can move up (If they want), but the lower weight rider can’t move down sufficiently to be competitive as there is a seeding drop limit. The lower weight rider if they desire could drop back to a lower level and win continuously. So what basically will happen is that instead of everyone complaining about watt monsters just winning on a massive sprint at the end of a race, we will start moaning about the Lightweight wkg machine blasting off into the distance on any climb, actually thinking about it….Blasting off anywhere they feel like it
Hey Eric… I think generally this system should be better, and there of course will still be ways to tamper with your score if you are so inclined.
One thing that does differ from the old system though is potential penalties for weight doping. You could conceivably drop your weight by 5-10kg for an event and do well, then bump it back up afterwards. This is possible because you are less at risk of a w/kg cat upgrade with ZRS as only the result counts.
Have Zwift considered this and perhaps put something in place to prevent such occurances particularly in ZRL? This definitely happens, I raced a B cat Pina race on the weekend against a 310ftp 40-50kg (sauce data) rider. Clearly a cheater and of course they rode away with it.
If you can count on anything, it’s that whatever Zwift try to do, there will be a load of people complaining that it’s unfair they get stuck not being competitive.
Outdoors everyone starts at the bottom and earns points to move up the categories. It doesn’t matter what weight you are or what power you have. It means some weeks you’re near the front, others you’re dropped. It’s not like you’re necessarily only racing your own category either. Plus you actually have to keep the bike upright!!!
Zwift try to create a relatively competitive environment so your average racer doesn’t have to race the next aspiring alien, but so many seem to think this also comes with an entitlement to be near the front of every race. It just doesn’t, and shouldn’t, work like that.
I really don’t think everyone complaining about the system is saying because they are not at the pointy end it isn’t a good system. I just look at the categories and canvsee it’s not a good system. The main race on Friday which was The Zwift World Series using ZRS had category rider strengths ranging from.
Cat A 3.7 -6.0
Cat B 3.1 – 4.7
Cat C 2.8 – 4.5
Cat D 2.4 – 4.0
Cat E 1.7 – 2.5
Those are 20 mun wkg rider bests 90 days.
Now are we saying here that doesn’t make a difference?
Are we saying it looks like Zwift have really thought about this?
Are we saying the base calculations looks pretty good?
Or do we look at those figures and say WOW those categories are massive and somethings wrong?
Hey Terry. 20 minute doesn’t win the majority of Zwift races – I can certainly beat riders with better 20 minute than me if the terrain allows me to draft the hell out it. I’d concede that neither does 10 minute, and 5-6 minute power should maybe be used to set the baseline in this system. The rankings/categories should sort themselves out with time as scores settle, given it’s going to be predominately results based (assuming no material change in ability).
Maybe my opinion is skewed by the fact that I race outdoors with all sorts of stronger and weaker riders in my category and therefore Zwift categories and who is in them don’t bother me too much.
Someone made a good suggestion to me on a another forum. Zwift could have taken everyone’s current pace category and assigned a score in the middle of each new ZRS range, leaving the bottom 5th range for people to fall into. No calculation needed for the base line, all Bs for example get a start score of 605, then results after that change your score. Results based system for score going up or down and no maths to argue about.
I agree most races don’t come down to 20 mins but 95% of 20 mins is a guidelines to riders strengths, but doesn’t give a total rider profile. However the basic thing I’m pointing out is that if a 2.8 20 mins is in the same cat as a 4.5 20 mins it won’t matter what kind of punch or sprint the 2.8 has, he won’t be anywhere near at the end indeed possibly 10 mins in. They are not putting riders into the correct cats and that has to be crucial to this type of system.
I only Race in Races that have less than 10 Entry’s…That way I’m always guaranteed a Top 10…. That Works for Me !!!!! 🤔😂🚴🚴🚴
Spoken like a true Fred! My brother’s name is Fred, BTW…
I exceeded cat C limits (once) (5 min power) in July; since then, I’ve been in cat B exile! Now, every race is the same, I give it my all to hang on to the bunch, only to be dropped on the first climb. In my opinion, sub categories would’ve fixed the upgrade disaster; for example, Zwift could’ve simply introduced B1 (3.8-4.2 w/kg) and B2 (3.4-3.8 w/kg) sub categories to give a newly promoted rider a fighting chance. I’m willing to give ZRS a go as long as you don’t end up waiting 3 months to get in a category that gives you a shot at finishing in the top 50! On the plus side, it looks like I won’t have to waste another 28 days getting owned in cat B as my ZRS has plummeted in that category, lol!
I would like to know what the racing score categories are now that it is finalized.
It’s in a forum post linked above (https://forums.zwift.com/t/changes-to-score-ranges-on-zwift-owned-zrs-events/634740).
0-180
180-350
350-520
520-690
690-1000
I tried to view the poll results you linked, seems to be broken, after clicking “see results” the svg loading indicator just animates forever without anything happening.
Ouch, I’m in the low 700s and there is a world of difference between me and everyone above me up to 1000. Did a race last week and a guy in the mid-800s literally cruised to victory against a bunch of 700 guys. Every time he made a move and I tried to counter he went into “800 gear” and rode away. The 690-1000 category seems unrealistic, at least from where I’m sitting.
I just got upgraded to A mid-series, and now I will drop back down to B mid-series, so I will not have a result in the overall series for two months in a row now. SMDH
Just a random thoght: What happens in the tiny race series when a contestant gets promoted between two races? Can he finish the in the old lower category when he is already registered in it or does he have to quickly register in the higher category?
For now the enforcement is only applied at sign up, so if they’re already entered they can stay after an upgrade. Same as the previous category enforcement.
They’re working on enforcement at the time of pen entry. Whether that rule would get applied to Tiny Races is a question for Eric, assuming organisers are given a choice.
I hope Zwift sets this up sooner rather than later… I’ve been asking for it for a long time. I’d definitely enable it! Racers need to be in their proper category, full stop.
I raced today in the new system and got slaughtered, like I wasn’t even at a level to keep attached to the bunch on the first climb. I’m a middle Cat B by my power curve in the old system, still showing as a Cat B on Zwift power, but previously I did OK in races through race craft developed over 32 years of racing IRL. In the new system, at least in the race today, the front 3 put out more power for 20 minutes than I’m capable of putting out for 1 minute (I finished second from last BTW in a field of 22 finishers / 24 starters). I’m guessing I’ll go down to a lower category as my race score decreases, and it will even out over time, but at the moment though it doesn’t seem like an actual fair competition from my perspective. It might be worth adding that my full time profession is as an endurance coach so I look at power files and performance data for a living.