This all started by accident. I was looking for a race on a Tuesday afternoon, scrolling through events in the Companion app, and managed to sign up for a ZRacing event on Wednesday at 3:10am thinking it was Tuesday at 3:10pm.
I didn’t notice my mistake until I signed in around 2:40pm on Tuesday, and there really weren’t any compelling races coming up in the next half hour. So I decided to race the “short” route of Tour de Zwift Stage 2, on two laps of the “Outer Scotland” route.
This event looked like a fun one for three reasons:
- Over 500 riders were signed up
- The route featured rolling climbs but nothing too long, which meant I might be able to hang with the front
- I created Outer Scotland as a Rebel Route in May 2023, but this would be my first chance to ride it as an official Zwift route. That always feels extra special!
If you aren’t familiar with Outer Scotland, the concept is pretty straightforward and easy to visualize if you know Zwift’s Scotland map. You start from the Glasgow Pens and travel in a clockwise direction, sticking to the outermost roads on the map:
A Weak Warmup
I didn’t get much of a warmup in because I got on the bike a bit late plus my scheduling snafu meant my race was starting 10 minutes earlier than planned.
I knew I needed to get into the start pens as early as possible to avoid having to blast through hundreds of riders at the start, so I popped into the pens about 15 minutes before go time and spun my legs to get the blood flowing.
Is this a race?
Let’s get this out of the way early: I realize Tour de Zwift is officially a group ride, not a race. In fact, I’ve already ridden 4 other TdZ 2025 events (going for the Ultimate Challenge!), and I treated all of them as zone 2 or tempo-paced rides.
This is what’s fun about Tour de Zwift, though. The groups are so big that you can always find people at your pace to ride with! If you’re a strong enough rider who wants a harder effort, you’ll find yourself in or near the front pack. If you don’t want to push very hard, you’ll find a group further back.
It reminds me of a chart I made a while back:
The truth is, on Zwift everyone is riding their own ride, and nobody is too fussed about what others are doing. Usually.
Start + Lap 1
We blasted out of the pens with around 450 riders in the pack, and I hit the pedals hard to make sure I could get to the front of the group. With Zwift only rendering the nearest 100 riders, you can’t always rely on the avatars you’re seeing on screen.
For example: you may be sitting in the middle of a long line of 500 riders, but it looks like the front of the group is just ahead because Zwift is only rendering the closest 100 riders.
So it’s smart to look at your current position at the top of the rider list on the right. This shows where you’re ranked, and also shows the total number of riders who have joined the event.
I got to the front of the group quicker than anticipated, and as we began climbing up the draggy Cliffs section of the course, gaps began to form in the line of riders behind.
One surprising thing I noticed, which I don’t remember happening as often in past rides, was the number of late riders dropping in. Every few seconds, it seemed, a new rider would appear in our group. It was a bit annoying, to be honest, but I also realized that most of these riders were quickly dropping from the front group.
Before we hit the 3km mark the elastic had snapped and I found myself in the front group of 46 riders. That group quickly dropped to 35 as we hit the Corkscrew Castle climb followed by Breakaway Brae Reverse, with many in our group making smart use of the powerups afforded at each arch.
As we made our way toward Glasgow, I had a strange steering malfunction that I hadn’t had before in Zwift: the game steered me hard right to the center line, and I wasn’t able to steer back into the pack for a few seconds odd. (See this in the video below at the 13:35 mark). This happened a few more times on the ride, but hasn’t happened since.
I used my aero powerup at the top of the Clyde Kicker, just before going through the arch, then quickly used my fresh feather powerup on the short climb that followed. I knew another powerup was waiting just up the road, and I wanted to use each powerup to maximum effectiveness.
We finished the first lap with 22 riders in our front group, and I earned my Outer Scotland route badge. Time for another lap!
Lap 2 + Finish
Things got spicy on the Cliffs this time around, but I stayed in the wheels, letting others pull back attacks. Jadon Jaeger, a high-ranked A+ racer (5-time and reigning USA Masters TT Champ), was off the front for a bit, as was Bobson Dugnutt, an A racer who kept attacking the front group.
(The problem was, I had no idea who Jadon Jaeger was. Or that he has a legit FTP of at least 411 watts.)
Popping my feather powerup on the Corkscrew Castle climb, I found myself just off the front of our group, chasing Jaeger. We both had steering capabilities, and Jadon got cagey, weaving back and forth to avoid giving me a draft. I knew I didn’t have the legs to stay off the front, so I just sat up and let everyone else catch.
It wasn’t easy to see what was happening at the front of our ride/race, to be honest. This is one of those things I wish Zwift would improve. Even with Sauce for Zwift running, I wasn’t sure if the riders shown up ahead were being lapped by our fast group, or were attacking off the front. The rider list on the right doesn’t help, since it only shows who’s ahead of your group if you put down the watts and move to the front of your pack.
All that to say, with 3km to go we were nearing Glasgow, and I thought Dugnutt was the only rider off the front, 8 seconds away. It wasn’t until I watched the video replay that I saw Jaeger was well ahead of him!
Not that it mattered for me personally – I wouldn’t have put in the chase on Jaeger anyway. But maybe someone else would have, and I could have followed their wheel?
We caught Dugnutt on the Clyde Kicker, and I thought everything had come together at that point. I triggered my draft boost up the Clyde Kicker, then got a rather useless feather for my final powerup.
The pace was high as we descended from the Clyde Kicker with just 1km to go, and I wasn’t sure if I’d even get back onto the wheels of the front group as the line stretched out. But they all seemed to sit up a bit to catch their breath, and I put in a well-timed dig on the last little rise to get back in touch:
There were just 11 of us left. I triggered my feather before the final left-hand turn, then downshifted and got out of the saddle for the final sprint. To my surprise, I saw myself passing rider after rider, eventually crossing the line in what I thought was 2nd position!
Turns out, Jaeger was 8 seconds off the front in 1st, which meant I got 3rd on the day. I’ll take it!
See my activity on Strava >
See event details on ZwiftPower >
Watch My Video
Takeaways
A total of 663 riders joined this event, and while at least 130 of those dropped out early and countless more weren’t treating the event like a race, I was still pretty stoked with my result.
A few noteworthy takeaways from this ride:
- Surprising myself: going into this ride, I wasn’t at all sure I’d even be able to hang with the front group to the finish. So I was really pleased with coming across the line in 3rd! I set a 6-week power PR in the 20-minute range, which is always nice to see.
- No coffee: I didn’t notice a single coffee stop used in this ride, which struck me as odd until I remembered that you only get one 30-second break in the first 5 minutes of a ride, then you aren’t able to take another until the 30-minute mark. But there’s another rule: you can’t take one in the last 5km of a ride! My ride ended at 31:31, so basically nobody really had a chance to use a coffee stop when it would have mattered.
- Late join mods needed: I really wasn’t a fan of having all the late joiners dropping in next to me as I was digging deep to stay in the front group. It was especially frustrating when a handful of riders got off the front for a minute or two, and I saw late joiners dropping in up the road! I’d like to see Zwift modify their late join placement logic to put riders, say, in the middle of the event. Find the rider who is positioned at the 50% mark (say, 75th out of 150) and place late joiners next to him. That doesn’t seem like a difficult change to make.
- A more helpful rider list: I’d love to see Zwift tweak the rider list UI for events so I could see riders who are off the front of my group. Perhaps something as simple as a little bar at the top of the rider list that says something like “2 riders ahead”? (In fact, if Zwift added that, they could also change the bottom of the list to say something like “45 riders behind”). I think this would be a big improvement for group rides and races. I even made a rough mockup:
Your Thoughts
Have you tried racing any of the Tour de Zwift events this year? How did it go? Share your thoughts below…
I am racing all the C rides of the tour. Our club has an event for the quickest GC times over the 6 events. It a bit more Tactical as it’s about getting on at right time and hoping you have a big group to help carry you along. No points available but still good fun and as always with these event you still have the feeling of being in a race which is good. Ride A and B I just cruise round zone 2.
I race Tour events all the time, and the front part of the field is absolutely a race every single time. Lots of people doing their own thing throughout the field, and also lots of people treating it as a race. These events are big enough to accommodate all types of riders.
Your UI mod suggestions are spot-on, particularly the late-joins and the rider list. It would be even better if Zwift just bought out Justin at Sauce and incorporated those features into the app itself.
Totally agree with you suggestions.
Late Joiners could be dropped in the middle of the group, not at the front. I had never really noticed them until doing the Outer Scotland ride on Tuesday as well (though not nearly as quickly as you; I was just excited to be in the top 15%, and my legs are still wondering what I did), and it was distracting, which sort of surprised me.
A better rider list on the right would be great too. The list, the placement at the top of the list (10th of 663), the view of the avatars; they all change independently so it’s hard to know for sure where you stand. I also think lapped riders should look different (or not even appear?) on multi-lap rides like that. I was nowhere close to lapping anyone on that course, but on multiple laps of Crit City, or the London Classique for example, lapped riders can change a race.
+1 on a different appearance for lapped (and lapping) riders. That would be awesome.
I’ve never seen the draft info or the graphics just left of the rider list – does that come with TDZ or are you special?
I’m special. Just ask my mother!
Also, I use Sauce for Zwift: https://zwiftinsider.com/sauce-for-zwift/
The “Is It A Race” chart is hilarious. Although with Holo shouldn’t one rider be at 20%?
I joined late and dropped into a climb and they were all doing 6 w/kg…I dropped like a granite anchor (Lower D racer here). I spun for 10-15 minutes and ended up where I should by the end.
Fair point re: HoloReplay…
“The truth is, on Zwift everyone is riding their own ride, and nobody is too fussed about what others are doing. Usually.”
and
“I really wasn’t a fan of having all the late joiners dropping in next to me”
😅
I agree though, late-join is an RNG. As someone who has used late-join twice now for the TDZ because not having an option for on-demand rides is brutal for someone with little time, sometimes it’s only 5 mins late and then it just dumps me in the pens — leaving me to either A) catch up to a group which sounds awful or B) quit and late join in another 5-10 mins which then gives all the serious riders heartache. Also sometimes late-join just breaks entirely and gives up.
Important thing to remember is that TdZ are, in fact, group rides. Late join is enabled by default for group events. However, I do think for group rides with no yellow beacon leader, late joins should be able find a group that matches their capabilities.
For example, if my typical ride is at 2.8 w/kg, Zwift should find a group that is cruising at that pace (+/- a few tenths w/kg) and place you there. Probably not exaclty and easy thing to do, but would work nicely for everyone. The halfway by rider count is a (seemingly) easy solution.
I recently late-joined a TdZ event and was placed at 400 of 500-some riders. This was not great for me because the groups that far back were going much easier than I really wanted to. The opposite of being dropped into a front group doing 6+w/kg. But still frustrating.
Your “Is It A Race” graph had me laughing out loud mate!
I’ve late-joined and been dumped near the back too (or ended up there accidentally due to mechanical mishaps). It’s actually kind of fun (I’m a low-B racer) because then you can spend the whole ride with a lot of rabbits in front of you to chase. I’m not going to win or finish near the front in this scenario, but sometimes I’ve ended up working as hard or harder than in a real race. It’s easy to catch people in the early part of the ride, but you have to work harder and harder as you get closer to the end.
I am often a late joiner (I cannot seem to get organized enough to start a 6am ride on time), and it drives me nuts to get dropped at the front. I’d love to be added to the middle or even closer to the back. (And I’d love more rides that start at x:30…)
I’ve noticed that the mini-map is still missing a few sprint/KOM arches here and there, like the one at the top of the Cliffs climb at 3.0km and 14.1km.
I asked ZHQ about this… arches only show if the route includes the full segment for that arch. Which isn’t how it should work, if you ask me. When powerups matter, we need to see all the arches!
@Eric Schlange : On the steering, assuming you were using Plays. Monitor for increasing frequency of steering weirdness and beware of phantom shifts. I noticed something similar right before my first set died. Seems to be corrosion related? Had mine replaced under warranty.
Will do!
There should be a motorbike with a guy on the back with a little chalk board to give the time gaps.
That would be pretty sweet, if a little moto would pull up and show us gaps.
And the time gaps should be questionable, just like real racing!
That’s a brilliant idea.
Thank you, I enjoyed reading your report @Eric Schlange very recognizable!
What an achievement to stay with the front group for the complete two laps, the bumps are wearing you down, respect.
Yesterday I managed to stay with the front in the first lap, after that my tank was empty and I dropped back to finish lap 2 with the second group.
These tours always push me over my limits, I love racing these very populated group rides with riders of all levels.
Great way to set a fast route time for Zwift Insider’s Route Hunter leaderboards! 😉
It’s my first time doing the TdZ, I’ve only been on 8 weeks, and I’m doing the lot. Usually starting with the middle ride first, followed by the short one, which I did after doing the climb portal on Tuesday🥵, and the longer one yesterday. Biggest annoyance for me? The riders sitting next to you going up the long drags while they’re on a coffee stop! I’m mean, what’s the actual point of those? It’s like doing a Fondo & catching the bus for a while, utterly pointless imo!
These musings are similar to what runs through my mind when I’m trying to fall asleep at night. Rehashing the ride of the day is great way to blot out the things that might keep you up at night. But if I was finishing third with such a big field, I might be too excited to fall asleep. Great result!
I was towards the back and was getting passed regularly. I’m guessing riders are being dropped in everywhere. Since I ride regular rides, I recommend that riders come in with the last rider, unless they were in the pens and just missed the start. Those folks get dropped in where the riders around them are. In no case does a rider get dropped at the begining.
Late join location at the front: every rider can just go at the pace they want and they will eventually fall back and find their group.
Late join location at 50%: 50% of users will need to do a hard (potentially very long) effort above their goal pace to reach a group that matches their desired pace.
Since this is a group ride, prioritizing people being able to find a good group for themselves over people treating this as a race seems reasonable.
That’s a reasonable view I hadn’t considered.
Agreed Tim… “If” Zwift did not drop in Riders with less than 5/4/3/2/1K to the
Finish… At that point there is No Finding Your Group…At that point it is simply
just disrupting the finish for the Riders that have done most of/all of the Ride?
Even though it’s “Not a Race”, but Zwift gives you a Placing,
so it, for some…”It’s a Race”…I so I agree! Both for me,
and other You Tubers that I have watched. It is “So Annoying”
to have the “Late Joiners” drop in with, I’ve Seen less than
2k/1k to go… But I also ask myself, why are they doing it?
Do they “Know” they are are doing it, or not?
As someone who does the group rides for fun, please don’t give me a “you’ve been lapped” mark of shame. Maybe perhaps a little icon beside some ones name to indicate the lap # they are on would be sufficent.
i do like the idea of late joiners being placed more in the mid pack range. Joining in and seeing the people around you cranking high watts can be discouraging.
These large group rides are a lot of fun. Sometimes on the long course I’ll sit at the starting block for 1-2 minutes before moving, then see how far up the board I can get by the end.
You never really catch up to your peers, but eventually you do catch up to people that can hold your wheel but can’t really pull…and from that point forward almost everyone you catch sticks in your growing blob.
I find it a fun way to mix it up sometimes.
Well done!
Why can’t late joiners drop in at the back of the group
Only viewing those in placed in front and immediately behind would be really useful on these laps/bidirectional routes. I’ve been surprised a few times when someone creeped in from behind and passed seemingly out of nowhere bc of a bunch of +10:00 riders in the list … I’d also like to see a running estimate time to finish at all times, not just like in Climbing Portal and Sprints.
Loved the Race Likelihood chart !
I remember in my motorcycling days them saying “the first motorcycle race started just after the second motorcycle was built”
Do these rides have a Lanterne Rouge? If it they should have.
I think TDZ is great. But,maybe it’s just me, I don’t know where to see results on Zwift? Seems strange I have to go to ZwiftPower, zwiftinsider, look at a YouTube video how to find results.
is it clear for everybody else where to see results for each stage and overall?
regarding late joiners. I was like 10 seconds late due to HRm not connecting to day. I think I was put very last.
Interesting. So apparently not ALL late joiners were putting front!
Races on Zwift show results when the event ends. But TdZ events aren’t races (officially), so you don’t see results. Sort of like asking “where’s the results sheet for our weekly group ride?” IRL. You may be racing it, but it’s not an official race, so no official results…
I was riding Makuri 40 as a TdZ event, top 10% or so most of the ride, and kept seeing my placement going down even though I wasn’t being passed. It took a few minutes to realize it was late joins. That was quite aggravating.
Exactly my experience in this ride! I guess it’s a good reminder, not to take it too seriously…
If you are 8th on of your screenshots … Dugnutt is 2nd not 1st!
Always ‘race’ the Tour de Zwift or Tour of Watopia events mainly due to the (usually) high participant numbers. I have fun doing this and usually push well above my regular average power numbers, so for me it’s for great motivation, and also due to having rides every hour for a week to choose from there’s always a time to suit me (unlike a lot of races). My Outer Scotland ride/race was also a great race/ride, the rolling nature kept the front groups pretty close and ended with a cagey Glasgow section full of sprints right until the end, good fun and a boost to my ftp number.
This route leads me to wonder:
When, how often, or even if the VeloViewer Route Hunter leaderboards are updated?
This follows your disappointment of realising your race didn’t exist and your “pondering the possibilities” series.
I have – on a few occasions now – scoped out a race, planned my workday around it, logged in and warmed up to find only 2-3 people in the pen. Once there was no one else. On these occasions no one ended up racing. These events had plenty of participants in lower categories and so I’d love for there to be an option to race maybe one category down in order to still be able to get a race in.
Now, I’m not wanting to influence the race, or even win, but get a ride in that feels more race like. I think this would have to allow riders racing down a category to not show for riders in the right band, or show as a ghost perhaps. But joining in on a race (even a cat down, even when no points / prizes are up for grabs) is better than having to resign to a workout.
I know some races have all cats visible, and there has been a cleanup to the race calendar – but this offers something a bit different (not having to check the mini map to see if that person attacking is in your cat)! Of course another option is to have “all cats visible” for lower attended races.