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    FeaturedTips & TricksRacingReferenceSpeed Tests

    Investigation: TT Bike Supertucking and Downhill Speeds in Zwift

    Eric Schlange
    By Eric Schlange
    August 24, 2022
    22

    A Zwifter asked me question last week: “Can you supertuck on a TT bike in Zwift?”

    “You cannot,” I told him. “I’ve seen it happen occasionally as some sort of weird visual bug, but generally speaking your avatar won’t supertuck if you’re on a TT bike.”

    That Zwifter went on to say they had heard rumors that you actually do receive the benefits of the supertuck on the TT bike, it’s just that the avatar animation isn’t there. Like some sort of stealth supertuck or Zwifty quantum entanglement.

    Having never tested TT frames for supertucking, I decided it was worth a bit of time to get a firm answer. Especially if thousands of Zwifters will be team time trialing atop TT frames every Thursday moving forward!

    Setting Up the Experiment

    Testing for TT supertucking on Zwift isn’t as easy as you might think.

    This is because (and few Zwifters know this) the physics of descending and supertucking are handled differently in races on Zwift than they are in every other situation. You can read all about this in our May 2019 post “All About Zwift’s Updated Race Descent Dynamics“, but to summarize:

    Races

    No braking force applied when coasting

    Supertuck receives extra aero advantage

    All Other Rides

    Slight braking force applied when coasting

    Supertuck simply removes that slight braking force

    To supertuck in Zwift three conditions must be met:

    1. You must be traveling at least ~36MPH (~58km/hr)
    2. The gradient’s decline must be at least -3%
    3. Your power output must be less than 11 watts

    For this experiment I used London’s Fox Hill descent. Solo riders would start the descent holding 300W until they hit 60kph, then cut their power completely (if it was a supertucking attempt) or reduce power to 50W.

    Since race physics differ from free (or group) ride physics for road bikes, I figured they might for TT bikes as well. So I had to test both race events and free riding.

    Speed Test Results

    My riders did a total of 8 Fox Hill descents, in various configurations. We did each type of descent at both 0 watts and 50 watts. Zero watts was the supertuck attempt, while 50W was held at other times to keep riders out of the supertuck.

    Here are the results (times are from Strava, so there is a bit of rounding occurring):

    Bike TypeRide TypePowerDescent Time
    TTFree ride0W2:19
    TTFree ride 50W2:14
    TTRace0W2:18
    TTRace50W2:15
    RoadFree ride0W2:27
    RoadFree ride50W2:23
    RoadRace0W2:08
    RoadRace50W2:24
    • Note: TT bike was a Canyon Speedmax CF SLX, road bike was the Specialized Venge S-Works. Both used DT Swiss disc wheels.

    Takeaways

    The TT bike’s times between free riding and the race were nearly identical, which indicates that Zwift does not alter descent physics for TT frames based on the type of ride (race vs other rides).

    Even though our TT supertuck attempters met all the requirements (zero watts, gradient at least -3%, going over 58kph), our avatar never supertucked visually. Moreover, the TT bike consistently turned in a faster descent time at 50 watts compared to 0 watts. Clearly there is no supertucking going on with TT frames. Not even a stealth supertuck!

    This is our major takeaway for TT bike riders, regardless of whether you’re in a race or some other event: on descents, you are better off soft-pedaling at 50W than coasting. Even on steep descents! Simply put, if you’re not pedaling your TT bike, you’re losing time.

    We ran the road bike tests just to confirm that Zwift’s physics are still working the way they were two years ago. And they are! The road bike’s times show that Zwift treats road frames very differently from TT frames. Supertucking on the road frame in a race was 19s faster than supertucking in a free ride!

    Supertucking gives riders a major speed advantage on road bikes, but only in races. In fact, based on prior tests, we can confidently say that supertucking a steep descent in a race can give you similar speeds as riders holding 300W (4 w/kg) on that same descent.

    Conversely, supertucking in a free or group ride is slower than soft pedaling at 50 watts. Keep that in mind if you’re in a non-race event and trying to go fast on a descent! Pedaling even at 50 watts will get you down the hill faster than supertucking if you’re not in a race.

    Questions or Comments?

    Post below!

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      Eric Schlange
      Eric Schlangehttp://www.zwiftinsider.com
      Eric runs Zwift Insider in his spare time when he isn't on the bike or managing various business interests. He lives in Northern California with his beautiful wife, two kids and dog. Follow on Strava

      22 COMMENTS

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      Paul Himes
      Paul Himes
      5 months ago

      I was commenting on this after last night’s Zwift Classics race in Bologna. On the way down the hill after the race I topped out in the mid-90’s while coasting on the Felt 1A 2.0 (rested at the top for a minute then stood up on the pedals at the top of the descent until I hit 60 kph) while I can usually hit at least 105 kph supertucking down that hill in the Tron (if memory serves, the fastest I’ve gone down it without drafting was ~112 kph supertucking in the Tron and have hit ~115 kph supertucking down… Read more »

      1
      Reply
      Jamie Bishop
      Active Member
      Jamie Bishop(@j4m1eb)
      5 months ago

      Brilliant analysis – very interesting that even very low power is better the coasting downhill on TT bike and road bike in freeride.

      2
      Reply
      Diogo
      Diogo
      5 months ago

      off topi question.. which kit is that one blue and orange that the avatar is wearing?? Looks pretty nice

      2
      Reply
      Eric Schlange
      Author
      Top Member
      Eric Schlange(@eschlange)
      5 months ago
      Reply to  Diogo

      That’s the “Prism 2” kit. Unlocked with the Prism pack at level 46.

      2
      Reply
      Nemesis
      Nemesis
      5 months ago

      I tested the same this week (though with fewer samples) and came to the same conclusion – it was clearly faster to pedal than not.

      1
      Reply
      Darin Boyd
      Darin Boyd
      5 months ago

      Great info, Thanks! it’s notable however that none of this takes into consideration riding in a pack and the effect of the draft, which of course in a race would be likely unless you dropped…

      1
      Reply
      Paul Himes
      Paul Himes
      5 months ago
      Reply to  Darin Boyd

      In the WTRL TTT race last weekend (Makuri Flatland Loop), I stopped pedaling on the downhill after the dragon (?) claw in the field. We weren’t quite going supertuck speeds on the descent (we were just playing with the mechanics and shooting for longest time on course), but I (by far the heaviest in the group) was able to stay in the pack while coasting until the road flattened out. Then I shot out the back like a rocket and had to sprint like a madman to catch back on again as the road descended right before the pens. So,… Read more »

      0
      Reply
      Eric Schlange
      Author
      Top Member
      Eric Schlange(@eschlange)
      5 months ago
      Reply to  Paul Himes

      That’s interesting, Paul. Hadn’t though about this particular situation, since Zwift isn’t turning off the braking for TT frames, even in a TTT, it’s just a bad idea to coast at all.

      My guess is you dropping off had more to do with losing the draft than anything else. But your whole team, if they were coasting on TT bikes, was losing time on the descent…

      0
      Reply
      Paul Himes
      Paul Himes
      5 months ago
      Reply to  Eric Schlange

      The rest of my team wasn’t coasting. I was just trying to see if the draft was at all sticky and would let me hook up with them and coast the way that I can sometimes do in a pack in a race even when we’re not supertucking to just get a 2 second microrest (and was also trying to see what would happen if we got up to supertuck speeds, which we didn’t because we were just playing around). Turns out that I almost could stay attached but need to be extra careful about falling out of the back.… Read more »

      0
      Reply
      Rijck
      Rijck
      5 months ago

      Supertucking IRL is dangerous and not allowed in any official Tour anymore. So I don’t understand the relevance of all this.

      -9
      Reply
      Sherman Olsen
      Sherman Olsen
      5 months ago
      Reply to  Rijck

      Maybe you would be more interested in rideoutsider.com, then?

      20
      Reply
      Mike
      Mike(@michaeltrowe)
      5 months ago
      Reply to  Rijck

      Tell me you have no idea what Zwift is without telling me you have no idea what Zwift is…

      2
      Reply
      D G
      D G
      5 months ago

      I wonder if it’s worth testing this in a team trial event. We know Zwift has changed the dynamics to enable TT draft, and I wonder if they have also tweaked the Zwift dynamics for descending on TTs

      4
      Reply
      Jerry
      Jerry
      5 months ago
      Reply to  D G

      Was thinking the very same thing.

      0
      Reply
      Anna
      Anna(@arussell)
      5 months ago

      Great analysis, definitely answered the question for me (am I the ‘zwifter’ you mention 😂)

      3
      Reply
      Bas de Vries
      Bas de Vries
      5 months ago

      Thanks for researching this. This article answered so many questions.

      0
      Reply
      Carl J
      Carl J(@runbikebbq)
      5 months ago

      Will learned something new today.

      Did not realize that Supertuck was treated differently between rides and races.

      2
      Reply
      Amber Lee
      Amber Lee
      5 months ago

      Brilliant analysis – very interesting that even very low power is better the coasting downhill on TT bike and road bike in freeride.

      0
      Reply
      Mark Kassels
      Mark Kassels
      5 months ago

      Very interesting results. But, my super tuck preference/technique is to tuck with intermittent 300-400 watt accelerations. That world be tough to test!

      0
      Reply
      Nick Keat
      Nick Keat
      4 months ago

      Interesting results. I tend not to bother supertucking during races, as I find that pedalling at ~100 or so watts allows me to stay in the draft of a downhill pack who are often tucking. I find entering and exiting supertuck to be quite laggy, which can on occasion result in being dropped by a pack, whereas low wattage pedalling to stay with the pack is much more predictable. I’m not sure if this is due to using power meter pedals, but power seems to take a few seconds to drop to zero, and another few seconds to re-engage after… Read more »

      0
      Reply
      Tom Sanders
      Tom Sanders
      4 months ago

      @Eric Schlange , is there any information on descent times for other road bikes? For example, how much faster is the Venge S-Works + DT Swiss Disc wheels then the Aethos + Lightweight Meilensteins?

      2
      Reply
      Natt
      Natt
      2 months ago

      How about in the TT race without draft… Would aero bike still perform in a similar way?

      1
      Reply
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