In the Zwift Hot Topic series we focus on popular discussions, controversies, questions, or creative ideas in the Zwift community. We’ll share a couple of different perspectives, but we want to hear your thoughts, too. So read on and chime in below!
Another Tour of Watopia has come and gone, and with it, more arguments about the jungle roads. I found lots of people willing to share their opinions in the Zwift Riders and Zwift Racers Facebook groups.
Do dirt and gravel roads belong on Zwift? Should they act any differently than smooth asphalt? Sure, they can bring some visual variety to routes in Watopia, Makuri Islands, and Scotland. But adding resistance and slowing them down can turn a smooth cruise into more of a slog.
Petra Jungmann: “It used to be my favorite ride on Zwift. From downtown Watopia around the jungle and back. Then they brought in the gravel and totally ruined it for me. … I think nevertheless that it would be nicer to just have dedicated roads for gravel enthusiasts.”
Craig Schaepe: “I just don’t get at all the hate for the jungle loop. Are people put off that they are virtually a few mph slower than on pavement? I have never paid that much attention to the virtual speed since it is fake. … It comes down to just putting in your effort and forget the speed.”
To me, the real potential of mixed surfaces comes out when you’re racing. Do you change your bike and risk not being able to catch your group again? Stay on your bike and risk falling behind? Start with a bike that will let you attack where it matters most? Answer these questions well and you’ll get an advantage on your opponents. Answer them poorly and you’ll be cursing the dirt.
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David Hivey: “The change in road surface should add a tactical aspect to the game. Until recently it certainly did. The difference in speeds for the gravel and road bikes made it just faster to do a bike swap on many sections such as the temple KOM.”
David isn’t happy with the recent update that made dirt and gravel surfaces faster. It makes that tactical advantage smaller – to the point where changing bikes no longer helps in some places. I wonder whether this will make anyone happy. Road bikes are still slower on dirt and gravel, but maybe not enough to make a tactical difference anymore.
Some racers don’t want to bother with changing equipment, though. They might find it hard to change bikes and wheels quickly, especially if they have limited access to input controls (like a mouse and keyboard).
What if you’re just trying to ride with a group? Another Zwifter pointed out that dirt and gravel roads can make group rides chaotic, as people naturally lift their effort to keep up speed.
Whitney Stidham: “For mixed surfaces on group rides, it can be tricky; you have people really pushing pace on a mixed surface which of course, pushes the pace of the group. A mass bike exchange entails a mass stop, then everyone changing, and then a mass start… It makes for slower times on group rides, and riders that aren’t as strong have a tendency to fall off the rear because they are tired from pushing on a mixed surface.”
Your Thoughts
What do you think? Should Zwift stick to road cycling and pave the jungle? Keep road, dirt, and gravel roads separate? Make all roads ride the same on all bikes, or put them back as they were and keep the challenge? Let us know in the comments!
As in the real world, if you don’t like riding on a particular surface (or incline) choose a different route.
The issue is that at least 60% of the available routes within Watopia include the Jungle (including all of the new South Coast expansion) have climbs up the Alp, Epic KOM or are not loops. While I enjoy a challenge every now and again, when I go riding in the real world, I do not spend 60% of my time riding sustained gravel, or mountainous climbs. The volcano climb, Titans Grove, Zwift KOM are most typical of a climb that I would encounter in the real world. They are there to get me up/over to the next valley or set of roads. Despite the poor road conditions, I do not typically run into several kilometers of gravel or dirt and have to go uphill.
But to which extend does this affect your ride? How much time do you ‘lose’ (it’s all virtual) on your way to adz? If you’re about to spend an hour going up a virtual climb, what does a minute on a virtual road change to your experience? The lead in could be longer by one mn, on paved surface and you would not argue. Thus, why is it a problem? I’m not getting at you, but I don’t understand the logic, or the mindset.
For me, it’s about a journey. And I love the journey to go through different landscapes and experience. My time and speed, which is all virtual, does not matter. My power does IRL, if I want to shine on strava, I will pick a fast road with good pavement, straight lines and friendly wind. Better reach 30km/h mark than 250w. But on zwift, who bothers, really? There are races to compare each other.
But for group or solo rides, who bothers? Why do we always have to be measured to performance? Can’t there be a place where a ‘just ride’ is fine? If, like many, you want big virtual stats, tempus fugit is always there. Why not enjoy a different experience? And, if the lead in to adz means you lose 1mn, then all the others will lose the same mn and your stats will not suffer from it. It’s like going through a town or rough surface. You have to deal with it.
In my view, there should be something for everyone. And if you don’t like it, don’t take the road. And if you have to, just get on with it. Like in real life.
This is the core issue. Does it make any sense at all Alpe would be accessible only by a remote, rough jungle road? No. There should be an alternate paved route. The recent Watopia expansion gave a golden opportunity for this to happen. Instead of connecting the coastal road only to the jungle, continue it northward to the base of Alpe. Maybe that will happen in the future.
But the idea that people resent the dirt is silly. Do they resent hills? Hills also make you slower. IRL do you resent headwinds? They’re part of riding, as well. Cycling is about dealing with a range of environments, and doing the best you can in each.
On the tactical side: bike switches in a race are sort of silly so for most cases races shouldn’t reward bike swaps. I think the recent changes in dirt Crr are a good sweet spot between dirt retaining tactical significance and putting too much emphasis on bike swaps.
“IRL do you resent headwinds?”
… raises hand slowly…
It is quite telling that when you look at the Robo-Pacers, most of the routes do not travel thru the jungle (Sugar Cookie does). Most races, and posted rides (with the exception of the Alp rides), they don’t seem to pass thru the jungle either. I think in order for the jungle to really work, there needs to be jungle expansion, or races/rides on mixed terrain that make riders select the mountain bike and/or gravel bike. I have only been riding Zwift for 3 months, and only use the Mountain bike riding in the jungle. I have never used the Gravel bike.
That would be much too easy AND there would be no reason to complain or feel “oppressed” (wild theory: there is a considerable amount of overlap between the “pave the jungle”- and the “I say CHRISTmas”-crowds 😮
Now you are putting words into the mouths of the people that disagree with you? No one said anything about being oppressed until you brought it up.
How difficult would it be to install a temporary test reroute that is paved for the jungle that connects to the new coastal road? I bet it would be interesting to see how many people take the reuote. Here’s an idea, pave part of it. Just to the base of the Alpe. Leave the rest? Is the jungle my favorite? No. I rarely ride it just to ride it. I have to use it for the new coastal routes and the Alpe. I just deal with it.
The jungle used to be paved way back when, and it was far more popular. Riding in the jungle became unpopular when they changed it to dirt, so already know that a paved jungle saw more use.
Nope.you are completely wrong.
Jungle was dirt when it was introduced and released.
That’s true, however it had the same speed as if you were riding on a paved road, there was no slowdown in your speed or needed increase in your effort to maintain speed.
Visually only. There wasn’t “dirt” back then in thr physics sense.
I avoid the jungle at all costs and it bugs me that the new routes run through it.
Totally with you. I only ride the jungle road to complete routes and to get to the Alp climb. I am willing to ride the jungle roads to get to the South Coast roads heading downhill. I avoid at all costs, riding uphill in the Jungle.
keep the roads the same, but throw in a few banners to give chances for steam roller! Also, could increase the XP earned on the slower surface to appease the xp hunters.
maybe an additional paved road that winds from near the pens, over the back of the jungle behind the big temple that links to the alpe and continues to the coastal road.
as for the dirt roads, keep them as they stand.
Since the update, the rolling resistance has much improved leading groups through there. We do still lose some off the back, because yeah, there is still a bit more effort required. To me, it’s still a tactical area for races; bike switch or no to gain on your competitors? I think now it’s a happy medium (my comments in the article came before the update). Still tactical enough for races, but smoother for group rides now. With that being said, there are plenty of #pavethejungle supporters.
The rolling resistance changes negate any swap for a race – it was marginal for high Bs as it was, now its not worth it for any cat.
I don’t swap anymore now that they changed it.
I used to switch to the mtb now and then for fun, sometimes it would work in your favour, other times not. Now, since the recent rolling resistance changes, they managed to make gravel bikes even more useless than they already were lol.
Nail in the coffin for dirt roads in Zwift. There’s no skill element to the game; no handling characteristics between bikes – you cant crash, and now no real speed advantage, so what’s the point in gravel/mtb bikes?
#PAVETHEJUNGLE
I don’t ride the jungle very often, because it is slower and kind of a pain to switch bikes. But I would not get rid of those roads or pave them. It’s a nice alternative to ride if you are bored of the tarmac roads. I like that they are faster now, but it seems like cheating. they SHOULD be slower. and a bike swap should give an advantage. But I’d also like a way to bypass it to get to the coastal roads and alp
Pave it. or make it the Makuri surface that’s almost as fast as pavement. I don’t mind the way it looks but wish it wasn’t so slow or tricky for group rides.
Riders with preferences should not be forced to ride surfaces they don’t enjoy, they will revert to routes they like and have less options. I love a long flattish loop on tar. The coast road is perfect, and offered a 50k perfect scenario- but I don’t really ride the coast now because of the dirt. Perhaps I would if pacebots went there?
So if someone likes and wants gravel, they should be able to switch all roads to gravel?
I suspect Zwift directs new routes through the jungle to try to get people who tend to avoid the jungle, to encourage them to come back. If that involves getting a badge, people (more specifically me) will do it once and then avoid it thereafter. Why? Because of mental blocks developed from riding dirt roads in real life. They are slower, get my bike dirty and are a rougher ride than pavement and I don’t seem to be able to get over that mental image even in the virtual world.
If they did so, It didn’t work…
Just add a Paved bypass cutting overhead, connecting the Southern coast and bottom of the Epic KOM reverse. I think it’s good to keep the gravel and dirt, it would be awesome to see more of it actually, but for us roadies something smooth and flat alongside it would be fab 🙌
I definitely want gravel routes in game but would like them to be specific routes and loops. I feel like the little unpaved sections really disadvantage lighter riders without the raw watts of our 80kg friends. That being said, on some courses it makes it more fun to have to really think bike choice strategy, like Scotland. If I am out doing a training ride, I tend to avoid the dirt sections on purpose. Keep it in the game but think about how it is used.
Double the xp and drops for gravel and it suddenly becomes wildly popular!
Nope… XP and Drops mean nothing to some of us…
please pave the jungle, I love the routes but with the dirt I just avoid it at all costs. I also like the new Southern Coast but as I don’t like the jungle it’s just an out and back.
If there’s anything that this whole debate has shown, it’s that you can’t please everyone. Even trying to meet in the middle with less rolling resistance for road bikes but still giving gravel/mountain bikes the advantage seemed even still to piss some people off (“It makes bike switches obsolete!”) I tend to fall in the camp that agrees with the happy medium they attempted to achieve. That said, I just figure Zwift should find a way they want to make it, just leave it as is, and let the riders ride where they will.
A variety of surfaces makes for a fun ride. If you do not like gravel do not ride it. if you do not like a challenge then pick another route. Zwift is nor just for racers ….free rides are fun too.
All the people saying if you don’t like gravel don’t ride it are missing the point. A lot of big routes that are mainly road but involve going onto gravel) dirt. It’s those mixed routes that are the problem. The jungle circuit is perfectly fine if kept as it’s own route and not mixed with road. IMO what would be better is to remove the gravel etc from watopia altogether and open another map that is purely gravel/dirt. That way people riding watopia get to enjoy just roads, and anyone wanting the different surface can ride an entire map of them. Without the mixed surfaces I think an entire map of it would be quite a fun option.
Absolutely this. Like a lot of people I have a road bike and a mountain bike in real life. When on the road bike I never ride on dirt/gravel. When on the mountain bike, the only time I ride on paved road is when I’m riding to or from the mountain-bike trails. I think the idea of dirt/gravel in Zwift is a nice one. But don’t mix them! And have some dedicated mountain bike races and some nice single trails. But as Jimmy says, keep the separate so you are not slogging away on mountain bike on paved roads or on a road bike on dirt roads. A lot of people don’t like the feeling of slogging away…
There are construction works on a fake junction of the coastal.route and what looks like potentially a road higher up from the coast road
Wouldn’t be surprised if there was a jungle bypass and link to existing mountain road in the works.
Road and mountain biking are completely different disciplines. I lead lots of real life rides for my local club and I wouldn’t expect a mountain biker to show up on my road rides. Likewise, I wouldn’t bring my road bike on one of their routes. In Zwift, however, road bikers are forced to use non-paved surfaces on many routes in both Watopia and the Makuri Islands. It reinforces my suspicion that many of the folks who do programming for Zwift have never been on a real life outdoor ride.
Keep the two cycling variants separate—as they are in the real world.
Different surfaces are an important addition to the realism and immersion of the game, I think. Virtual speed is fake and we are just used to seeing the speed in the corner being high. Similar to hilly routes where we need to debate a lightweight vs aero bike, rugged surfaces make us consider road vs gravel vs MTB choice. I think we just haven’t quite figured out the bike choice yet. Nobody complains about the Epic KOM being too steep, but incline also impacts speed. It just counts for something where extra resistance in surface is immeasurable loss.
Turn into bitumen hate dirt roads
For me slow surfaces on zwift are no fun because I’m already going nowhere IRL. The scenery on the screen changing at a quicker pace helps quite a bit.
Gravel patches that you can steer around could make the jungle more interesting and engaging, and make use of the Play controllers.
Dirt has its place in zwift just like it has it’s place outside, but they need longer sections, the jungle route is good but feels like a transition not a route. If they want to make a feature of the dirt they could make a ciclocross course like crit city and get some use out of the ciclocross bike or a long rolling section of dirt maybe a coastal section like the new expansion where a gravel bike would be the choice over the road bike. A lot of racing has the bike choice dependant on the amount of dirt but there isn’t enough dirt for the bike change to be a big decider.
Diversity is good.
…and it leads to majorities feeling oppressed, apparently 😉
Nobody feels oppressed here. This is a discussion about preferences.
Try and look at it like this:
In the “real world” there are literally billions of roads, tracks, paths – paved, unpaved, whatever – for us to choose from when we ride.
Zwift is an extremely small representation of this real world and the possibilities in it.
As such the only logical conclusion is to have different road surfaces in the game also.
The ONLY reason to have a different opinion is if you want to say that Zwift should be a road bike only application / game.
If that is your reasoning I say: please take such exclusive and elitist ideas to where it belongs – Rouvy or MyWhoosh!
“If you disagree with me then you must hold this completely unrelated opinion which I think is bad!” Learn what the argumentative fallacies are and don’t use them.
“Somebody is making an argument against which I cannot come up with another one so I must come up with some absurd and illogical but smart looking sentence including (falsely used) terminology to imply I am much samrter than you!”
Accept a valid and well explained opinion, don’t drag it into the mud because you dislike it!
My argument is absurd and illogical? Which part? What terminology did I use falsely? I do thank you for calling me smart though! Very nice of you.
“Accept a valid and well explained opinion” <- Okay so now you are saying that it is an opinion? No longer an argument? You need to decide which it is.
Having different surfaces is not the problem, it’s mixing them within a single route. As you mention, IRL there’s load of different surfaces, but when does anyone take their road bike and decide to suddenly mix the route up with some dirt tracks?
It appears from the comments most people are simply wanting routes to be a single type, whether its roads or gravel or dirt etc. If the jungle area was a discrete area with it’s own dirt tracks and all road routes bypassed around it, that would make sense.
Example: About 15km from my house is a really nice and quiet, newly paved and slightly inclining road I love to ride. However, to get there I need to climb about 800 vertical meters AND about 300 more on the way back. So I take that into consideration when I go riding. I ask myself: do I want to take this effort up so I can ride this great road?
Guys, what is this obsession about “routes”?? Do you have these “routes” that seem to be totally inflexible IRL? I can actually chose to go left or right at intersections and guess what – I can do that in ZWIFT too. Oh, and when I join a race or group ride IRL I make sure I know what the route entails in the form of surfaces I will ride on and adapt accordingly OR I just don’t participate. This is EASY!!!
In addition, with the “teleport” option you can pick somebody who is at the bottom of the Aple climb and start there easily as well – an option you don’t really have in real life without the use of e.g. a car.
Where does this sense of entitlement to have everything in ZWIFT just the way YOU want it come from? Where has the understanding that life is full of compromises gone? Do you realize that you are trying to force something by using false logic that you would nevert use IRL?
There’s nothing particularly logical about your logical conclusion.
I ride the jungle b e c a u s e it is slow. It makes my indoor km better comparable to outdoor km. I like to use my weekly km and riding time as a quick indicator how much I’ve trained. The paved surfaces in Zwift are ridiculously fast. Even if I ride the jungle, I achieve more km in a week riding indoor than the same riding time outdoor.
My dislike of the jungle is related. The problem it sets up is that the time/effort/elevation/distance relationship in zwift is inconsistent if I spend any significant time on gravel. Did I ride less or slower that week? No, I rode some gravel..
I agree that nearly matching outdoor speeds is a good goal, but even more important, in comparing weekly effort, is that the relationship to outdoors be consistent.
This problem along with not enjoying the slog uphill out of the jungle had me, and perhaps most, stop riding it routinely when resistance went up. I have not experienced any up side to that change.
They paved paradise, put up a parking lot…
KEEP the gravel…in fact, add more! I think that there is great potential to ADD more of those routes…especially in France and in the void that parallels Desert Flats. Create LONGER gravel loops for LONGER gravel events/races. As for racing–KEEP the strategy of changing bikes and there is the challenge of navigating a finish in a cloud of dust (“Where are my opponents?!”). KEEP the variety…and ADD to it–take it beyond the novelty!
Try to avoid Jungle routes where I can and to be honest, dislike it when I do end up there. Seems to be alot of discussion around swapping bikes for it etc but for me, you shouldn’t be able to change bikes mid race.
I have an even better idea, pave all the roads and have dedicated unpaved roads like ridge and such. I hate the non-paved roads. I avoid the jungle when I can.
Why do people ride? Is it just to go “as fast as possible” regardless of effort? I ride for fitness & pleasure. I find the jungle fine. So what that for the same given effort I go slower. It’s not like I have to be somewhere by a certain time. And if I’m doing it in a race, I used to love the choice of switch or don’t switch. That’s gone now.
I know, let’s make all routes in Zwift be downhill only on glass-smooth roads, that’ll keep everyone happy.
It seems many people still count kilometers/miles as the measure of accomplished work. Which is nonsensical. What matters is time under load and kilojoules. Zwift is power based platform. Why people still count distance is beyond me.
Because they want to… Simple… People ride for their own reasons…
Don’t you DARE question their reasoning!!! Power curves, FTP, Interval Workouts… Do these even MEAN anything?
(I guess many of the “distance-addicts” would be surprised to know that in motor sports you very seldomly find a speed indicator anywhere but for the audience’s enjoyment 😉)
Because many don’t have outdoor power meters?
Not to go as fast as possible, but when you ride outdoors the feeling of movement provides pleasure. When you are riding indoors you are not moving so you lose that sense of pleasure. Moving forward and having the scenery change on the screen provides some of that pleasure, when you are slowed down it diminishes that.
For me, speed in Zwift is completely irrelevant. Gravel having more rolling resistance is actually good for racing because it makes for more selective course. As of any other type of riding it’s irrelevant.
I ride the jungle, but only as a connector to the coast road. I know there’s not a huge difference by not swapping bikes, especially now, but it’s still feels slower. And I guess I have a mental block there still.
But it also still appears to be enough of a difference that swapping bikes is an advantage. I usually ride a Trek madone, and I switched to a canyon Grail gravel bike. It definitely makes a difference.
But on Apple TV I have never been able to swap bikes in less than about 20 seconds.
I’m generally able to make up that 20 seconds over the gravel section, then I have to switch back to my road bike and lose another 20 seconds.
My feeling is either make bike switching consistent across all platforms. Or just pave the damn thing.
A way to swap bikes quickly, selecting from some defined favorite configurations, for example, could make this much easier and is a much needed improvement to the garage (as no doubt frequently mentioned).
I also want frame color setting to be per bike, not global (off topic)!
Does anyone else think it is funny that people are complaining that the jungle roads slow them down getting to the Alp? I vote for putting the speeds back to what they were. Its just a different sort of hill.
I just remind myself that I’m primarily on Zwift for a workout. Don’t really care if my mph is lower if my w/kg are good
If you just wanted a workout then why not just stare at a bar graph and do erg mode? Because indoor riding is boring and you use zwift to keep you motivated. If you have to keep reminding yourself why you are there, then that saps some of your motivation. You shouldn’t have to remind yourself why you are there, you should be in the moment.
If they release a new tarmac climb that was 1.65 miles in length and averaged say 5% people would start raving about it as a brilliant addition, despite the fact that it would feel basically identical to the 1.65mi at 2.4% that is the dirt jungle climb. People just love a winge. Guess what in Zwift is 1.8 miles in length at 4.5%? … Box Hill. Guess what – that takes about the same time (actually slightly longer) to complete as jungle climb does. How many of you moaning about the jungle moan about doing the London Loop? I’m guessing hardly any. I’d understand it outdoors if your mate suddenly sent you down a gravel track when you thought you were going via a road climb, but in the virtual world, there’s literally no difference in what your legs have to do to ride both segments.
The point is… Zwift Nerfed it and now they’re unnerfing it…
The difference is that road surface is not one of the metrics that apply in the outdoor world (at least for a traditional road rider).
Unless you look only at energy expenditure, gravel in zwift gives you different metrics for the same effort on different surfaces.
I suppose outdoor gravel riders may have come to terms with this? Could account for some of the difference in perspective?
I like racing in the jungle because the dirt seems to suit me; I don’t know why but I seem to race better there than on asphalt. So variety is good.
I think the only problem is the mixed surfaces on routes; whether in real life or on Zwift, it’s not great to ride a road bike in dirt or a dirt bike on the road.
Would prefer it if Zwift designed routes and roads for road bikes, gravel and MTB and kept them pretty much separate. Sections of unpaved surface are just annoying, especially in group rides or races for those of us with Apple TV as swapping bikes is so slow. IRL gravel and MTB require technical skills and not just watts. Real opportunity to create gravel and MTB routes which you can only do on the correct bikes and where steering gives a real advantage as well as single trail sections where you can’t overtake forcing efforts and placing beforehand
Potential for completely different type of racing and riding on zwift
Unlike the token sections that there are now which have no real purpose.
Pave the imaginary dirt road? So that your imaginary speed can be a little higher or you can cover an imaginary distance 1.5 minutes faster?
“I avoid the jungle at all costs.”
Take a breath.
Go outside and touch some grass or snow.
Pet a dog or cat or other animal of your choice.
Ask yourself why you care.
Remember that riding is supposed to be fun and there are other, better, more important places to direct outrage.
Imagine what you could accomplish if you put this much mental and emotional effort into something productive.
Go to therapy.
You just criticized people for putting time and effort and caring about this…and you had to use your own time and energy and you CARE about this in order to post this comment. So maybe it is you that needs to go to therapy?
Wow, people down voting this comment, I guess there are a lot of people who care about this but don’t like being told that they care and aren’t able to comprehend their contradictory viewpoint.
Thanks a lot! Might seem harsh to some but I fully agree. The effort put into this by some people for something that literally makes a few seconds of difference…
It’s similar with daylight savings time in central Europe – makes a lot of sense but causes “so much trouble” on one (!!!!) day for a few people that they instigate a major political push to abolish daylight savings time.
So, the wasted effort of these people actually causes the need for more effort to debunk their reasoning and highlight the shameless self-support and complete lack of regard for other people in order to avoid these simple thinkers to actually come into power and destroy the world with their naive fallacies!
Imagine, your perspective might not be shared by others, and you could be missing another reasonable point of view.
There’s a lot that goes into one’s perception of a game/training platform. You don’t get to pick what influences someone else’s perception, and it doesn’t involve right or wrong.
Also, yearly time shifts have real world consequences. Ask a farmer.
After reading the comments I realize why I like the jungle so much: there is always some chat going on unlike on the flats or in Titan’s Grove, if people group up everybody takes turns and it is less crowded on weekends!
DON’T PAVE MY SANCTUARY!!!!!! xD
For those of us who have been around for awhile (2015 for me), we remember when all road surfaces rolled the same. Back then, we didn’t give it much thought. We were happy to ride in a virtual world that made indoor training engaging, immersive, social, and fun, while enjoying the real-world benefits of a hard training session. Anyone remember Zwift’s one-time motto “Fun is fast”? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbKDvMaMjHA. Yeah, that’s how we like it and the marketing department at Zwift HQ knew it. The experience of riding through each world, map, route, road was fun because of the visual stimulation the game provided – and still does. The various road surfaces, riding environments, landscape, colors, sunsets, even rain are all part of what keeps me coming back for more. “I wish dirt/gravel/wood/cobbles had more realistic crr” – said no one ever. Even so, someone at Zwift decided it would make for a more realistic experience to vary the crr with each road surface and I seriously doubt that decision was not based on user feedback. So why the change and to what end? To make it more realistic? Ok, so why stop there? Who among us has ever complained about bombing down the Alp at 50mph through the corners? No one? Maybe Zwift should take a page out of the Rouvey playbook and slow us around corners and through hairpins. No? How about wind? No? Maybe when it starts raining in Wattopia all roads should increase crr. No? My point is to ask what is the purpose of the game if not to make it an enjoyable experience? Consider the poor programmer at Zwift HQ who puts all the time, effort and expense into developing a new – and quite beautiful – route through the Mayan Jungle, only to have folks avoid it because the surface is slow. I personally love the jungle. It is beautiful and a ton of fun to ride – including the dust kicking up from my back tire. It’s cool and adds another fun element to the game that keeps me coming back. However, sadly, I rarely ride the jungle. There are (quite good I’m sure) dirt routes on Makuri I’ve never ridden. Why? Because I’m human and some things like added crr, which does little to add to any perceived realism, detract from my enjoyment and fun of the game. I love riding gravel IRL. I own a nice Canyon Grail and make it a point to ride the local gravel routes weekly. My average speed is slower than on my road bike on tarmac and that’s ok. I don’t ride gravel to go fast. I ride gravel because it’s fun, free, safe, uniquely challenging – all the things a virtual world cannot offer. The gravel roads are never exactly the same from one day to the next. Washboard sucks, but it’s all part of the IRL experience I am happy to live with it. Besides, tomorrow it will probably be fine. My point is, and I’ve said it before: Any intended realism of slowing us down on varying road surfaces is completely lost in a virtual world. I don’t race. I don’t switch bikes for competitive advantage. I ride pacer bots, meetups and personalized HIIT workouts. That’s me and my take – and I’m willing to bet I’m not alone.
Here, no we are at least two.
See, the motto is “Fun is Fast”, not “Fast is Fun”… Totally different things, if you concede that there are certain rules in the English language 😉
But hey, looking at the reasoning “pro-paving-the-jungle”, I don’t expect rules to be adhered to or respected if they indicate a diversion from somebody’s opinion!
At the end of the day, this is a game and they have taken the game out of it by making the rolling resistances so similar. Roll back the changes! #MakeBikeSwapsGreatAgain
If the dialog to select bikes wasn’t so appalling to use (even on a laptop) with inconsistent/random keyboard support and a scrollbar that a virtuoso pianist would find impossible to control, then that tactical part of Zwift would be fun instead of a total lottery. All they need to do is add consistent cursor key / return / esc key support and a filter where you can not list all the tat you’ve spent drops on but suspect the manufacturers would be against that.
How about a bike swap hot key, or a button next to the “jump to new pace partner” button, where you can select your most recent gravel, road, mtb, or tt bike? Once pressed, your avatar quickly slows to a stop (regardless of power), a new bike appears, and you’re off! Tactics are cool and all, but the ability to navigate clunky menus doesn’t seem like the best way to gamify Zwift.
When you care about this the matrix has really got hold of you. Always remember you didnt ride anywhere, no distance was covered, no elevation was gained, there was no average speed as you were stationary. The only valid metrics are watts v time.
Always remember, that no matter how far you ride outside, how many meters of elevation you gained, no one gives a flying pancake what you did. You don’t matter. Nothing in life matters. #nihilism
Is there a watts vs time training plan that is popular outdoors, for the minority running a power meter? Not that I’m aware of. Hence, time and distance.
Fitness aside, it’s entertainment. Try not to be surprised that people are engaged. That’s kind of the point!
Doesn’t mean any of us think it’s *important*. Look at how excited people get about spectator sports where all they do is watch!
I hate the dust! Bad for my virtual allergies…
Has no one thought of the environmental impact of paving the jungle and what that will do the the wildlife? Shame on you!
They should make it rain sometimes in the Jungle & turn the dirt roads into mud. That would really give us something to complain about. In addition to being even slower, we would have to spend ages washing our virtual bikes after each ride.
I’ve been an ardent believer that Zwift “ruined the jungle” when they added mountain bikes to the game, and I’ve avoided routes that use it for years. And I’d bet actual dollars their telemetry shows many other riders have done the same, so I’m thrilled they revised the CRR values. I think they should have made it gravel, but I’ll take not having to swap bikes. Honestly most unpaved sections in Zwift should be gravel, but that’s an argument for another day.