Make no mistake: Tiny Races are tough! The races are short, the fields are strong, and the effort level is high. As Tiny Races have grown in popularity, we’ve seen an increase in the number of riders “sniping” races: racing just one or two events, hoping to grab some easy ZwiftPower ranking points.
No More Sniping
This weekend I’ve knocked together some code in order to try something new: if you don’t finish all four Tiny Races in the timezone you race, you’ll be disqualified from ZwiftPower results for whatever races you did finish. That’s right: no more points sniping!
My guess is this will cause a decrease in signup numbers, but an increase in race fairness and quality. That’s a trade I’m willing to make!
Last Week’s Results
I raced the zone 2 B’s last week, and Zwift Academy winner and current EF Education-TIBCO-SVB pro rider Tanja Erath was in the field, smashing all four races. She took the win for the ladies, while Nathan Guerra’s better half Gabriela took the A win in zone 1 for the ladies. Super fun!
Overall Podiums
A: Ethan Treacy (BL13)
B: Anders D. Christiansen (DZR)
C: Carl (CycleChat)
D: Dan Bekker (DBR)
A: Johannes Randrop Keiding (Fusion)
B: Greg Alexander (ZRScot)
C: Gary McGeehin (ART)
D: Henrik Rothenbücher
A: Fabian D’Evola (dPAC-ELITE)
B: Eben Swart (DIRT)
C: David Hivey (ART)
D: David White (EVO)
Women’s Podiums
A: Gabriela Schumann (Beastmode p/b ROSE)
B: Sara Lundin SZ
C: Marjolein de Vliegher (Herd)
D: Linda Winkens (Team NL)
A: Åsa Fast-Berglund (SZ)
B: Tanja Erath (TIBCO/SVB)
C: Mona Kangasniemi (ZZRC)
D: Darja Vavpetic (VirtuSlo)
A: none
B: none
C: Kelsey Tranel (KRT)
D: Jadene White
This Week’s Routes: Going Downtown
We’ve got four fresh routes this week, all in Watopia, all beginning from the downtown start pens. But each route heads in a different direction, and they’ll get harder (read: more climby) with each race!
Here are photos so you can see the precise location of the custom finish line for race 1:
- Race 1: Bigger Loop (6.75 km, ending at rock underpass heading into the Ghost Town)
- Starting off with our flattest route, you’ll climb to the desert from downtown Watopia, pick up your ghost powerup at the rock arch, then sprint for the custom finish line beneath the huge rocks as you enter the Ghost Town.
- Powerup: Ghost
- Race 2: Beach Island Loop (6.166km, ends at JWB Sprint)
- This will be a wild finish! Everything will kick off when we hurt the Dirty Sorpressa which snakes up to the Italian Villas. But wait – you’ve got some cobbled road following the Sorpressa, plus the JWB Sprint! Where do you use your powerup? Where do you attack?
- Powerup: Aero Boost
- Race 3: Two Bridges Loop (1 lap)
- Basically a perfect loop for a Tiny Race, this is going to be made even more fun with the inclusion of the anvil powerup. Remember, the anvil now only makes you heavier on descents, so it’s safe to use at any time!
- Powerup: Anvil x2
- Race 4: Downtown Titans (6.804km, ending atop Titans Grove KOM Reverse)
- Saving the best (biggest) climb for last, we’ll start in downtown but work our way up to Titans Grove, riding the uphill rollercoaster through the redwood tree and waving hello to Jarvis before attacking the Titans Grove KOM Reverse.
- Powerup: none
Sign up at zwift.com/events/tag/tinyraces
ZwiftPower Results
Zwift displays preliminary race results in game when you cross the line, but points are computed after all four races are finished, with final results on ZwiftPower. (We have to do some data processing on our side to compute results, so if your rankings don’t show up right away, just be patient.)
Riders will earn points based on finish position in each of the 4 Tiny Races. The category winner of each week’s series is the rider with the most points across their timezone’s 4 races. Here are the links for each timezone’s results on ZwiftPower:
Rules
Tiny Race rules are simple. Final results live on ZwiftPower, and:
- Heart rate monitors are required
- You must finish all 4 Tiny Races in your timezone, otherwise you will be disqualified from whatever Tiny Races you did finish. No points sniping!
Join a Chat & Chill Cooldown
Immediately following each hour’s racing, we’ve scheduled 30-minute “Chat & Chill” events where riders from all categories can spin out their legs together and have some fun chatting about how it all went down. Find them at zwift.com/events/tag/tinyraces.
Questions or Comments
Post below!
Wow! I can’t wait to see how this new rule pans out!! Great idea!
And I love the races you chose this week!!
I’m super stoked about this week’s routes too! I think they’re a really nice mix, a tough progression, and I like the “Downtown” theme.
Love the sniping code. AND that the races gets harder and harder.. Fun weekend ahead.
We’ll see how much we love it when we arrive at the bottom of Titans Saturday! 😜
Do all 4 races need to be in the same category?
They do not.
Hang on… so I can enter a lower Cat for the later races when I’m getting tired?
I don’t agree with that (but I do love the Tiny Races, especially the no sniping rule so thank you for everything and please don’t think I’m being a diddlydoodah)
I don’t DQ riders for racing in different categories, as long as they complete all 4. Why would I DQ them, when category enforcement is enabled, so I know they’re always going to race in their “legal” category or higher?
Here’s the rub (for riders who choose to do this): you’ll be out of the running for the overall win, because your points won’t be added together.
I had forgotten all about CE.
My bad.
Please carry on with your sterling work and ignore me.
How it’ll work for me, I struggle to get to the last race so I may do race 1 in ‘A’ race 2 ‘B’ race 3 in ‘C’ & race 4 ‘D’.
I treat each race as a qualifier for the next until I make the “Grand Final”
Oh God, I feel awful now! I only did the first last week and justified it to myself on the basis that as it was the first it didn’t make much difference and that I’d just finished another race I was actually at a disadvantage to the other riders. What do others think? I agree with the policy though!
Don’t feel bad, man. Heck, when I started the Tiny Races I INVITED people to just hop in and try them out! But over the weeks it’s become clear that this isn’t a good way to do it, since it results in people with fresh legs attacking those who have already done a few races.
Since it was only race 1, AND you’d already done a race – I don’t think you’d be called a sniper by anyone. 🙂
Thank you! I feel absolved and my rating gain of 0.28 will no longer bring me shame.
Yes Eric 🤗 !!! Many thanks that you have made many thoughts about my recent post/recommendations/ideas and found a great first solution to cut off the snipers (if intended or not). So now, we all have a much better chance for a fair Omnium GC where snipers don’t have impact on offered points by race (and the same for ZP ranking points). Hopefully, in a few weeks snipers (again : if intended or not) even will not take part in these Tiny Races (because of their DQ), so that they also don’t have impact how every single race goes/develops (depending… Read more »
Carsten, for some people these new rules will not make much difference. It will just change the race dynamics. For those who regularly join just one race and place in top 10, they can simply go easy in first two or three races, sitting comfortably in second/third chasing group, avoid sprints to save energy. And they will come with “fresh” legs (this unwanted warmup may even help them) to the last race to “snip” the points. 🙂
this could be possible Michael … but then they “have to race” 30-40 minutes aaand to avoid the broom wagon 3 times 😉 … and they would have a low ranking in the Omnium-GC … I think that this would be a good deal for all … I also would not have a chance vs a strong light climber in an uphill race but perhaps could be better in the other 3 races 🤷🏻♂️ … or : it would only be possible to gain ZP Ranking Points for the whole GC … and not for every single race 🤷🏻♂️
Eric, first let me say thanks for creating this instant classic. I literally look forward to the tiny races all week. I’m not a sniper by any means, and I really don’t do the races for ZP points (I don’t finish high enough anyway). But I have a standing soccer game at 8:00 am every Saturday so doing all four races is tough for me. I usually drop out after the third race. Is there any way to limit the sniping rule to racers who finish in a position above (below?) their current ranking position, or significantly so?
There is not, Mark.
One thing I’m considering is not DQing riders who do something like what you’re doing… race the first 1, 2, or 3, but don’t finish the last one. As long as you’re accumulating the fatigue, and not, say, skipping the first 2 races then just racing #3, that’s probably OK.
I may change it for next week. Would welcome everyone’s thoughts on this. Because it’s still not entirely fair to come into the Tiny Races and only race, say, race 1. But it’s better than only racing, say, race 4.
Thanks for the reply. I really appreciate the thought and effort you obviously put into your ZI work Eric. Of course, I will continue to battle it out every Saturday regardless of the effect on my ZP points because they’re so damn fun and competitive.
IRL stage races typically count each stage you complete, but you must complete each stage to start the next. That seems like another solution.
I like this idea – not letting you do the next stage unless you’ve finished the previous stage. This will prevent fresh legs from coming into the race at all and disrupting the pace of the groups. Is this something that’s possible?
Be good if you only had to sign up for one event (Race 1) and completion of that it auto-entered you for race 2, then 2 to 3, 3 to 4, 4 to cooldown.
I absolutely agree! Zwift has talked about doing “stacked” events in the past, but I’m not sure where they’re at with that. Got a message in to check…
Eric, what has happened with this intention to change your code to allow for early exit? Is it still valid?
I haven’t decided if I’ll change the rule to what I described or not. I don’t like the complexity of explaining it, or the fact that someone could just race the first race and be done, or the first two races. Still causes issues…
If your ZP and Zwift cat enforcement ratings are different, can you mix the cats you enter for the 4 races without being DQ’d?
Yes, you can mix cats.
BUT if you mix cats, there’s no way you’ll be in contention for the overall points win, because points are calculated on a per-category basis.
These tiny races seem to be getting bigger each week. Last week the D category was finishing in around 12 minutes for some of the stages which doesn’t give them much recovery time.
I think 12 minutes is perfectly fine. Having a lot of recovery time isn’t a priority for my planning – I just want to make sure the vast majority of racers actually have time to finish.
Whilst it will be frustrating for some, I think full completion is the way to go.
If you picked a 40k race and dropped out at 30k because you can’t do a full hour .. Then you just aren’t on the results.
This is a mini series. To finish you do all 4.
More so if the events get harder. Needs to be a level playing field for those doing the 4 races.
Hi. Thnks Eric for this nice format. It’s a good thing that only riders that finish 4 events only count for points in the global clasification.But, there is an uninteded consequence of that, taht could potentially affect some riders. And that is my case, I’m a D rider with a sub 2.0 W/kg FTP. In last week race 3, when I was less than 200 m from the finish line, I was faced with the decision: either finish race 3 and not take part in race 4; or abandon race 3 and join race 4. In that situation, with the… Read more »
Just looking quickly through my own history on Two Bridges Loop, ~2.5W/Kg took 13mins44secs.
I love the Tiny Races races, gutted I’m still full of covid over two weeks on, but it does feel like the distance/elevation squeezed into a 15min sprint and have a bit of decent recovery for C and D racers is getting increasingly challenging.
And those times are from arch to arch, so the time needed from the starting pen to cross the arch can be another 30 s. I have to shave 2 min of my best time to get to the finish (at 14:38 last saturday I was sent to the next event). The lenght is a bit over 7 km, so at 30 km/h of average speed, that’s 14 min. But is not flat, so that iads difficulty. Probaly at 2.0 or 2.1 will be very close to make it.
God bless you Emilio! It’s fantastic that you put in the effort to compete and improve.
oh yes, on some routes, Cat C&D has the broom wagon (or iconic “la voiture balai”) directly in the neck 🥵 … and then, I would say THIS is the challenge for the day to come through the whole Omnium … ride on Emilio 💪🏼
I couldn’t finish race 3 so I didn’t “qualify” for race 4 (on the limit for race 1 & 2 too), good job there in the same world as never enough time to load a new world in between!
Did my first 4 tiny races this weekend. Really enjoyed them. Great to have another format to play around with.
Thanks for arranging them.
I like the new rule. Not realizing it was a bit frowned upon, I unintentionally “sniped” a race a few weekends ago because I didn’t have time to do all four. Not surprisingly, I finished far too poorly for someone to think I was taking advantage, but it’s still good to be informed. I think will make things more fair. Clearly the guys who have raced the first three will be a lot more gassed for race four, where someone could come in fresh with a huge advantage.
Good move, Eric! This has been one of the reasons I haven’t bothered with these races yet. Exhausting yourself in four races when others are showing up for one or two with fresh legs and ripping things apart.
Will DQ remove the ZP point ranking? And also will DQ’d rider’s ranking go towards race calculation? And a long shot, but any chance for Australian-friendly fourth race in the future? 6am kick off’s are hard to get motivated for lol.
Hi Christopher,
The DQ is intended to remove points, yes. As to whether that’s working… well, not yet, really. More on that in this week’s Tiny Race post.
Isn’t the 8pm UTC time friendly for Australians? And also the 8am UTC time? Both seem doable…
Eric, the time slot of the Asia Pacific division is not very fortunate. We have 80% of Britons, French and German riders there as they have 10am in Europe – a perfect time for them. Maybe it could be moved four hours earlier?
It is probably a good rule. I have done all 4 a few times, but often just do race 1/3 or 2/4 to throw a short high intensity effort into a longer workout. I am definitely not “sniping” though, hard too when I am finishing in the back of the pack! That said, it will be sad to see that DQ tag slapped next to my name, but it’s just a workout for me anyway 😂
To think that people enter just few races to snip points is completely wrong. If you look at the field, there is a large group of 50yo+ riders who simply do not have the fitness to do four races at extremely high intensity. And they do not have the capability to recover in such a short time. There are not many short races in Zwift these people can compete. Moreover, after these new rules are introduced, I can predict that many people will drop from B to C category to stay in better shape. We are going to see 4.5… Read more »
I’m definitely not COMPLETELY wrong… I know for a fact there is plenty of points sniping going on. But yes, of course there are people who only complete some of the races because of other reasons. I’m hoping the new rule will encourage folks to push themselves to do all 4 – even if you don’t kill yourself to stay in the front group, you should be able to complete all 4 at any age.
You can’t just drop a category – these races are category enforced.
You can drop. There are many riders who should be in B and technically compete in B but the system allows them to join C. Those are new riders, riders coming after some break or riders in the gray zone of two categories and system alows them to join. So instead of competing at fullgas in B, they drop to C to have a more relaxing pace because you forced them to do so. On expense of regular C riders.
THIS IS THE BIGGEST PROBLEM IN EVERY (!) RACE (Tiny, ZRL, ZRacing …) : new riders or those you show up after their outdoor-summer (or something similar) don’t have a Cat/CE and can “destroy” some low-cat-races before upgrading … I like the idea of either a longer time span (~8 months instead of 90-days-ZP-averages) or to calculate perhaps the best 3 or 5 races out of last 10 (without any time span) … again, THIS is the biggest problem to solve for ZHQ to have the best possible race experience for all of us 🙋🏻♂️
The person win in D, really has C category in ZP. I just joined a short race, not points, I’m DQ on my profile. This damage my profile. Really “nice” and “effective” system. Nothing about this in the rules. When people that just join one race is not welcome, not problem, but write it on the rules.
From my understanding even if you get a DQ on Zwiftpower, you still get the points.
My understanding is, the points that would have gone to you are basically “taken”, but those points are figured into your ZwiftPower ranking.
I guess we’ll find out in a couple days exactly how it works! 🙂 If DQ riders do in fact still get points then there’s little reason to do the 4-race rule.
DQ Riders get the same points despite the result. The only Zwift Power codes that eliminate you from the points are ZP and ZRVG. It’s definitely something that Zwift Power needs to fix but, to date, they haven’t done so.
Michael – you may indeed be right. My DQs this weekend didn’t take away people’s earning ranking points, it appears. (More on this in the next Tiny Races post…)
May have to try DQing with a ZP or ZRVG code next time to see if that works. Frustrating that ZwiftPower doesn’t function properly….
Love it! Last week courses were great, and this week seems awesome too. For another time, how about starting with a climbing course in the first race? The New York climb featured a couple of weeks ago would be great as a first race – what would the sprinters do then? 😉
That is the question Eric should ask himself. What is the purpose of this tiny race? To select a small group of 75kg allrounders able to sprint and climb, or to have a more inclusive race for everyone? I am heavy sprinter who cannot climb. But I can do 18 W/kg sprint for ten seconds. If there is a hilly race in tiny series, I usually skip it. Not because I want to stay fresh and snip points later but simply it makes no sense for me to finish few minutes behind the pack. With this new format I will… Read more »
Peter, if you can sprint at 18w/kg (and you’re heavy) you can definitely finish all 4 races within the allotted time (15 minutes). It’s just a question of whether or not you want to, I think.
Each race route appeals to a different type of rider. Those with the best all-around strength will win overall most weeks, yes… but that’s why they’re called all-arounders. This isn’t a sprint specialist series, or a climbing series. It’s a mix, so everyone gets a shot at the individual race wins.
If he can do 18 W/kg his fast twitch musles must be super dominant and his endurance close to zero. I guess he can finish all four races but if a hilly one is at the beginning he will be super tired and with much less recovery time than others. So chances are he would be dropped shortly after the start in the next race. No fun. He should be able to pick the stages that suits him. It is mostly allrounders like me excited with new rules but I understand there are sprinters and climbers who do not like… Read more »
I think we have to understand the whole TinyRace-Omnium as ONE EVENT (with 4 options to grab points for the GC) and NOT to take part in 1-2 races that suits to the personal rider-phenotype. I would say, there are lots of other (shorter) races on offer.
First it was a rule against point snippers, now it is an omnium? What is coming next? Confiscation of smart trainers? Needless to say that in omnium if you crash or decide not to continue you are relegated to the end of the result list but not DQ. Also, all your WR or national records achieved in 4km pursuit or 1km TT stay perfectly valid.
Don’t get me wrong Amanda (and some others with thumbs down 🤷🏻♂️🙈). The DQing rule is NOT really the perfect solution, but until now, Eric has no chance to install the rule that you only can sign for ALL 4 races and not for a few of them (He would need rights like WTRL or so). And yes, it’s “like” an Omnium (without having a much needed Velodrome) where the growing fatigue-level is THE main idea for THIS event and THE real challenge to compete with others. Race “X of 4” says it all. And for sure, IRL your results… Read more »
I understand but it is not justified. He can explain it in the rules and so we would not participate in the race.
Please read above Saray … at the end of Eric’s article, there IS a short part with the new rules 😉 … but for sure, not all of yesterday’s participants have noticed this important hint before 🙈 … time will help to get this info through the racing community … or Eric will find out an optimized signing rule for all races 🤷🏻♂️ … this would be perfect and would deny confusion & frustration for some of us … warm regards again to all … ride on 🙋🏻♂️
Making rule changes like that at the last minute is not appropriate. Hundreds of Zwifters have been DQ, so it’s not done well. Now instead of going quickly to a race if we have free time, we have to check again and again that it will not damage our profile. If we’re not welcome, not problem, close the race for people are not registered in the 4 races. This is a massive DQ and I hope Zwift manage it next days.
I believe that Saray is pointing at the confusion around Tiny Races that you yourself admit to. Schlange brings along a race format Zwift does not have proper infrastructure to handle. No wonder that we have this mess. Yesterday’s race is a complete flop as the number of DQs is ridiculous. Something went totally wrong. By the way, if Zwift is available in Japanese language, any significant rule changes to a race should be also written in Japanese. That is a basic requirement for customers.
I really thought like in the past Zwift Classics Series, it´s possible to enjoy in all races or only in some. This has damaged those of us, who just wanted to do a short race without lookings for points or benefits and those who want to enjoy the league. It has been a disaster for everyone, so it cannot be the fault of only the hundreds of Zwifters that this has happened to us.
Good idea Eric and I say that even as a semi sniper!! I think I have done the Tiny races twice and done 3 races each time. Less so to get points but more to make sure each race was a full effort interval and I got the most out of it.
That’s great for people who work and are hardly able to race the last two races…
This new, excellent rule, doesn’t change this.
If you can’t do all four, don’t.
Just ride what you can but don’t expect to get points from races where you are fresher than the other riders who are competing in all four events.
I’m really sad right now, but also angry, I crossed the finish line in the 3rd race with 15:01, so no chance for the 4th, wasn’t even the worst in D. The 3rd race was badly timed for normal D drivers, Track too long or you should have had an extra minute. Too bad, I always liked the races 🙁
I know heart rate monitors are required. I was wearing mine. It must have failed during the warm up as it hasn’t registered for race 1 and 2. But noticed and changed batteries. Worked fine for race 3 and 4. I have been removed from finish position for races 1 and 2. I have done tiny series every race bar last weekend , as away, and the results are consistent, is there any chance that the finish positions for race 1and 2 can be reinstated please? Thank you.
Hi Eric. Just did my first ever #TinyRaces and really enjoyed it. Only issue I had was that my auto invite to the last event (Chat & Chill Cooldown) came while I was still racing so I declined it. Then by the time I finished the race, reviewed my results, went for a pee, came back, I could no longer join it and it had disappeared from my events list in the companion app. Maybe allow late joiners to the cool down? We ain’t all racing snakes.
Hi Eric, thank you for this nice racing format 😉 … I love the new DQ rule … in my opinion, at least the third race this week was too long … so it wasn’t possible for a couple of D-kat riders to finish this race before the fourth started … maybe in such a case you can extend the time between races by 1-2 minutes?
There was more than a few, I think most struggled to finish race 3 on time this week
Hi Eric. Would you please consider to remove all those DQ signs you assigned to riders who had not completed all four races? DQ means that someone cheated. In my case, I joined the first race not knowing I have to finish all series. I did not cheat, entered correct category, my wattage was accurate, raced honestly. It is not fair to put this label to people who did nothing wrong. The profile is public, others can read it and have doubt about such riders, it can damage their reputation. Instead of DQ labels you better reset the placement to… Read more »
I’m agree. I only did a race. For training and enjoy. Now I have DQ. This damage our reputation. I want this DQ is deleted of my profile, please.
Just took a look at the results of the first two zones. More than 150 riders DQ. This is insane. It is not how the race experience on Zwift should look like and I believe the Zwift management does not want to make upset a large group of paid users. Firstly, changing rules on the fly is never good. Secondly, if you do not have a complete framework for this kind of races (registration like WTRL, one entry point that allots four slots) then enforcing someone’s will by a brute force is always counterproductive. Once you have join button with… Read more »
Jesus, 150? This is a farce. I have emailed Zwift to remove the “label of shame” from my Zwiftpower results. I am not here to be bullied for taking a part in the race.
89 filtered from zone 1 89 filtered from zone 2 38 filtered from zone 3 Overnight, the DQ code has been replaced by 1R/2R/3R (how many races you of the four you did). Absolute farce and perhaps record DQ levels (just over 25%)! 😀 How many really rank point snipe? 🤔 I did race 1 and 4 because I was absolutely battered after race 1, I hadn’t ridden at even half that power for more than a few seconds since I came down with Covid two and a half weeks ago. Similar story for my heart rate, I had only… Read more »
Total agree.
Factors:
Is it possible to register for any race? YES
In the rules, is it a reason for DQ not to do the 4 races or not to finish any of then? NO
As they handle the points, it cannot used to damage our profile. Not all of us have made a race to participate in the league or win points.
I want the DQ (1R) tag off my profile, please. I have not broken any rules.
Actually Saray, the rules clearly state that you’ll be DQ for not finishing all 4 races. I also wrote this very article you’re commenting on, with a title about Sniping DQs and a section explaining it.
From the event description:
—————————————————-
IMPORTANT: note the new “no sniping” rule below.
Rules:
– NO SNIPING! In fairness to other racers, you must finish all 4 Tiny Races in your timezone, otherwise you will be disqualified from whatever Tiny Races you finished. No jumping into one race to grab easy points from tired Tiny Racers!
Hey Eric! Great idea and I’m really a fan of implementing such rules.
But, yesterday I had a dropout with a connection error and Zwift shut down in Race 1/4 after km1.6. Logged in again for the next race and finished the other three. I’m a bit disappointed that there are no ZP points for these particular cases.
I agree that it sucks. I finished all 4 races as well, and get to DQ myself because Zwift (and ZwiftPower) don’t show me as finishing races 2 and 3. Crazy!
But those are the rules, and I don’t know of a way around that without creating a massive admin headache.
Hilarious how people are throwing their toys out of their prams over the rule change. I have to congratulate you Eric, brilliant racing series and I completely agree with the rules and enforcing them. If you don’t like the rules, don’t do the races simple. There’s far too many unfair races on Zwift, this one is spot on. The ethos is to race all 4, if you don’t and choose to race less you know what will happen now, don’t winge about it just because you get DQ on Zwiftpower, or it shows 1R or 2R, who really cares? If… Read more »
If it was that simple as you think. Zwift is a business product and riders are paid customers. You have business and legal liabilities here. For every step you need to think twice.
Are you one of those who think Eric runs Zwift? Eric doesn’t run Zwift and doesn’t owe you anything. This was an experiment based on the Zwift platform. Things have been learned. Things will probably be done a bit differently as a result of those things learned. The whole iterative process will evolve towards a race series that works better. I’m glad to see that, within just a few hours, they’ve changed the DQs to a different code to avoid the stigma of DQ. Proves they’re listening doesn’t it? Surely anyone interested in racing the series would check out the… Read more »
If 150+ people did not do the homework (including myself) then problem is probably bigger than you think. Maybe also involves language barrier? Zwift owns the platform as well as Zwiftpower as far as I know. So the main liability to customers is on their side. If you “experiment” with paid customers then do not be surprised if some of them gets upset.
It’s not Zwift doing the experiment. It’s Zwift Insider, who is not Zwift. As far as I can tell, Zwift has no “liability” or obligation to prevent race organisers disqualifying people from races for breaching the race rules that they published several days before the race. He’s put on a new type of event and is trying new things. Some work well, some don’t. He’s also being completely transparent about it. I take your point about the language barrier though. The fact that people are upset shows that something about this experiment needed modifying. But as far as I can… Read more »
Is it you, Eric? 🙂 He did not say Zwift had done any experiment. The same way like Andy did not say Eric run Zwift. Please read texts with understanding.
This is me https://zwiftpower.com/profile.php?z=2011117
And I fully stand by my comments, having read carefully and fully understood what was written.
I also didn’t race this week’s Tiny series because I did my homework and didn’t have time to do all four events.
The results of Zwiftinsider Tiny Race from yesterday should be nullified. There is a huge number of DQ riders, some of them winners, some of them at top places. It is such a massacre that the fairness of point assignment is highly questionable.
I would counter that the fairness of point assignment is highly questionable if we’re giving away points to riders who didn’t finish all 4 races.
Is it fair to give the win to someone who raced fewer races (and was thus fresher), even though the rules written in the event clearly state you have to finish all 4?
It should be the other way round. Is it fair to assign points to guys who were hidden in the draft of DQ breakaway riders? Because this is changing the overall dynamics of the race. You get on the wheel of a DQ group to get away from the pack. If those riders are not there, you would stay in the pack and got dusted in the sprint. So what is more fair, Eric?
Since you’re not bothering to post your actual name or email, I’ll just keep this short: to answer your question, the way I did it on Saturday is more fair.
I received this answer from Zwift. The only one responsible is Eric. I trust he’ll delete the DQ (1R, 2R, …) labels of our profiles. This is the answer from Zwift: Hi Saray, Thanks for contacting us! This is Braulio, a Support Specialist at Zwift and I’m happy to assist you today! I’m sorry for this situation you are facing, this is not the experience we want for you or any other one. Also, I can completely understand how confusing this may be when you did not have any idea about it. However, I will be more than glad to… Read more »
Exactly how Zwift should respond, and has responded in the past to similar complaints about other races/organizers.
Thank you for answer.
it’s not possible to sort the ranking by number of races and after selecting those Zwifters, select the points? I’m new in Zwift and I don’t know this can work, but maybe is a possibility.
I think the most of us who had joined a race did not want to take advantage of any situation, or take points, or harm other Zwifters. It was something not premeditated but we have all ended up harmed.
No, it’s not possible to do that.
I understand you didn’t mean to cheat. And I did change the DQ to 1R, 2R, 3R for clarity and to be a bit nicer.
I’m not sure I agree that you were “harmed”, though. And certainly “we all” weren’t harmed. Heck, I’ve got a 2R next to my name now, thanks to a Zwift bug! But I don’t feel that “harms” me in any way.
It’s just a Zwift race. Live and learn. Come back next week and do all 4! (But make sure you read the event description first.)
Sorry because English is not my mother tongue and I have not explained myself well. Maybe Harmed is not the right word. I just wanted to say that this label DQ makes us look as cheaters in a public profile. That‘s not nice for me at least. I also mean that I feel that people who participated in the league have been damaged in their points by people like me, who did a race without thinking that this could happen. Thank you for minimizer the DQ with a 1R label. I think now we all know for sure that we… Read more »
Interesting how this comment thread has blown up after Saturday. I sorta figured this might happen, although I really did earnestly try to take steps to avoid it. First: I’m not going to remove the disqualifications, because every rider who received a 1R, 2R, 3R, HR, or ZP disqualification did so because they went against the stated rules for the Tiny Race event which were explained clearly in the event description (and in every weekly Tiny Race post). That said, I’m still looking for ways to improve the situation moving forward. I’m not sure there are any, so it might… Read more »
Unfortunately – the DQs don’t seem to have worked. I guess that might be what you refer to by “There are also problems with how they’re working now, which I’ll probably detail in the next Tiny Race post.”?
Looking at a couple of those that got DQed from the A pen yesterday, they’ve definitely kept their ranking point gains.
Yup.
I mean… they sort of worked, in that the rider sees they’re DQ, and they don’t get any points for the overall Tiny Race competition.
But yes… apparently ZwiftPower is crap and still adds the ranking points to their profile. I’m working to find out if there is a code that will keep people from getting points.
The rules worked just fine. Well done on not giving in to the people who got a DQ and just started crying about it rather than admitting they got it wrong. Its like in ZRL when people bust the cat limit going up Innsbruck and then claim that they should be allowed more leniency because…because… because… its uphill
I just don’t understand. Rating points often take hours and sometimes disappear after more than a day as if they’re being re-calculated. Weird.
It’s because I’m messing around with the results, trying to get ZwiftPower to behave in the way it should. Which may be a fool’s errand…
Hi Eric, Thanks for the great races! I’ve tried Tiny Races 4 times. First two i couldn’t finish more than 2½ races, but third time was the charm (one the D-class) last saturday, and managed to finish all four again this saturday.
This saturday was a ‘downer’ though – The overall winner of the D-class should have been 1 or 2 cats higher: https://zwiftpower.com/league.php?id=1173&sid=9fd0cc0b080e5560971fcdceea4d7676
How was he able to ride in D-class with those stats, and is there anyway to prevent guys like him joining in the future? 🙂
He’s probably allowed because hes lightweight and doesnt breach the absolute wattage threshold to go up to C. Generally though the top of the leaderboards in this series are a who’s who of modern sandbagging. The top guy in B in that table has ridden way over 4.22 for 20mins on many occasions but by the letter of the law they can race in B so they do. Its not just Tiny Races though its everywhere, ZRL too, theres plenty of people in my own team (well, the wider team) that can easy go over cat limits but due to… Read more »
Hi Eric, & congrats for that competition!
I (& my team) hope there will be a team classification soon !
Thanks a lot!
Julien & Team Foudre
I just saw there is already a team standing sorry !
I got a surprise DQ two days ago. I would suggest the rule be displayed on Zwiftpower.com / Zwift or prevent riders from entering if they have not done the previous races. Signing on a few races does not mean a rider is aiming to take an unfair advantage but might be a simple schedule thing. Love short races nonetheless. Keep them coming.
The rule is in the event description text. Sorry you missed it!
Thanks for responding. Like many, I did not read the « long descriptions » which I just found out exist. On zwift power, the rules you first see are;
All riders must wear a HRM
5min and 20min ZADA limits apply
No ZPower riders
I suggest to add the « snipping » rule with those other more explicit rules.
regards
That text is auto generated by ZwiftPower and can’t be edited by me. The actual event descriptions are visible when you sign up for an event in Zwift or browse them via the Companion app.
1R/2R/3R tags have been again replaced with DQ tags despite Eric’s “I understand you didn’t mean to cheat. And I did change the DQ to 1R, 2R, 3R for clarity and to be a bit nicer”. Why?
Because I’m trying to “hack” ZwiftPower to behave the way it should. And the only way to do that is to mess around with various settings.
I’m learning a lot of minutiae at the moment, including how a DQ tag produces different results from a tag like “1R”.
Eric, this is ridiculos. You dont have any sense of being nice, you are treating your clients like … Even that you are not directly payed by them, those riders are clients of zwift and you are receiving support from zwift, like being preferred partner. Seems, that you try to create your own thing inside zwift, but using the zwift members. I will not recommend any more to friends to join your races, it us up to you to explain this to your further merchandising partners, where you are getting money from. With this unfriendly behavior zwift insiders lost a… Read more »
E.M.: how would you suggest I run a race series with rules without seeming “unfriendly” in your eyes?
I hope you can appreciate the situation I’m in. A rock and a hard place. Either I implement and enforce rules which the vast majority of riders support, to keep the racing fair… or I don’t implement the rules, which lets unsporting racing happen while diluting the reputation of the Tiny Race series.
So what would you suggest?
Hi, Eric. I do not think that the very most people you have given a very unfriendly DQ did NOT join your tiny races to be unfair. They even did not know about those rules. But with a DQ you are giving them a bad reputation, and you know very well about the image in Zwift. If you want a closed circle of riders you have to change the way of admission, so that everbody knows that he has to finish all races. The most of those as you call them “snipers” are hobby riders who only want to have… Read more »
I agree that most people who got a DQ weren’t trying to cheat the system. But that doesn’t change the fact that they went against the stated rules of the race. “Ignorance of the law is no excuse”, right? The DQ is ugly, but you broke the rules of the race. Kobayashi – I agree that many non-English speakers will not read the rules in the race. That’s been happening on Zwift since early days. BUT… isn’t it their responsibility to understand the race rules before entering? As a parallel: there was a race hosted by a Japanese team years… Read more »
OMG!! Do you want to exclude those of us who don’t have English as their mother tongue? I want to think that you don’t have a racism problem against us. Who do you think you are to say we don’t participate in Zwift races. How can you speak on behalf of Zwift like this? Zwift doesn’t care if we speak English as our mother tongue to take our money. This is out of control. Please, stop manipulating the results of a race that is proving ridiculous, remove the DQ labels and think that if 200 people have been DQ, you… Read more »
Come on, Saray. Let’s not make this something it isn’t. I don’t have a racism problem, nor am I trying to exclude people who don’t speak English as their native tongue. I’m just suggesting that everyone has a responsibility to know the rules of the races they enter. If that means copy-pasting the text description into a translation tool then that’s what riders should do. No race on Zwift has ever provided a full list of rules in all languages. I’ve seen a few that provide it in two languages, and that’s about it. To expect more than that is… Read more »
Looks like. This problem has only existed in this race. I’m pretty sure never a Zwift race had 200 DQ. Maybe it‘s not a language problem, but the wording of the rule. Please, be a Leader also recognizing your responsability and let‘s go ahead.
If you want to run an event without offending anybody, Amanda has already told you what to do. Create a registration process, assign four racing slots, disable join buttons with each stages and only after that apply your rules. Otherwise this event may end up with 200 DQ every week which eventually may rise eyebrows on Mr Min’s face. Zwift has thousands of non-English speakers. They will never read your rules but they will use Zwift Companion or Home Screen the way Zwift allows them to do. By the way: I hope you keep your word to remove those ugly… Read more »